ESPN: Ginobili vs. Wade

[waly.mg]

Wade is a better player

Manu is a better Team player

[Rick Von Braun]

Anyhoo, I said Manu can't consistently create his own JUMPSHOT. There is a difference.

You ever see him take jumpshots with the shot clock winding down? A lot of times they don't even get to the rim (like in the first half last night and a few other times this season). Difference is Wade can hit those consistently (let alone just be a threat to make them).

Of course Manu can create his own shot, but more often then not it is a drive to the basket. NOT a jumpshot.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Maybe he could do a better job of it if he was allowed to hog the ball, but I just have not seen Manu hit the jump shot off the dribble reasonably consistently (at least with the shot clock winding down).

I call this pure BS.

Let's compare the regular season numbers for jumpshots and for shots with 3 or less seconds in the clock:

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .479 (59% of his total attempts)
Wade .389 (53% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +9.0%

Wade does not have a better jumpshot than Manu, not by a long margin.

Let's see what happened with the possesion time running out (essentially a low percentage shot for most players):

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .520 (13% of his total attempts)
Wade .466 (12% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +5.4%

Oh... but may be you want to compare the playoffs numbers.

Player eFG% (for jumpshots)
Manu .519 (65% of his total attempts)
Wade .444 (59% of his total attempts)

Manu is better by +7.5%

Manu's jumpshot in the playoffs is still significantly better.

Player eFG% (21+ seconds in the shot clock)
Manu .533 (18% of his total attempts)
Wade .563 (7% of his total attempts)

Wade is better by +3.0%. In this case, please consider that Wade has a significanlty lower percentage of attempts than Manu.

These stats prove categorically that Manu is definitely a better jumpshoter, and at the very least, similar in terms of effectiveness when the clock is running down.

Also note that we are comparing two of the elite guards (arguably 2 of the best 5, may be even 2 of the best 3) in the entire league, and Manu still comes ahead.

For players who play a lot of minutes and is also 2nd/3rd option for his team....that is an awesome start so far.

But why aren't you going by the PSA (that factors in FT's)?

No matter how you compare them, Manu has better stats.
The PPS obviously factor in FTs.

PPS: PTS/FGA (including points from FTs)

Regular season PPS
Manu 1.52 (tied 2nd with Shaq)
Wade 1.41 (tied 11th with Dirk)

Playoffs PPS
Manu 1.85 (1st and ing increadible!)
Wade 1.46 (14th)

May be you don't like that Manu is aggressive, goes to the line a lot, gets many FTs and convert a high percentage of them in points. Let's factor out the FTs using the AFG%.

AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2
ADJ FG% measures shooting efficiency by taking into account the total points a player produces through his field goal attempts. The intention of this adjustment is largely to evaluate the impact of three-point shooting. For ex: If Shaquille O'Neal has 3-5 FG, all two-point shots for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600. Meanwhile, if Ray Allen is 2-5 FG, but his 2 FGM are both three-pointers for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600

Regular season AFG%
Manu .533 (tied 15th with Billups)
Wade .483 (tied 67th with J. Crawford)

Playoffs AFG%
Manu .604 (8th)
Wade .509 (30th)

Ohh... but the reason for this is that Manu is a much better 3pt shooter, so this is not a fair comparison for Wade. Ok, ok, I'll give you no FTs, and no 3pters. Is this better for Wade? Let's compare the 2pt-FG%

Regular season 2pt-FG%
Manu .517 (26th)
Wade .485 (61th)

Playoffs 2pt-FG%
Manu .556 (8th)
Wade .520 (28th)

I have sliced it in almost any way possible. Are you convinced now?

To conclude, Manu is a better jumpshoter than Wade, he is at least comparable (if not better) when the clock is running down. He is a more effective player, he goes to the line more aggresively, he is a better 3pt shooter, and he is a better 2pt shooter.

Edit: my sources are:
82games.com
ESPN

[Obstructed_View]

That was awesome.

[MadDog73]

Awesome work, Rick von Braun.

If Manu keeps this up, could he possibly be the Final MVP over Tim Duncan?!?

Either way, what an amazing player. I can't think of any team (except maybe the Pistons) who can defend Manu, Tony and Tim when they are playing well together.

[Horry For 3!]

Both slither to the rim. Both make slick passes. Both rebound well for their position. Both would rather drain weird-looking long 2s than jack 3s.

Actually Ginobili shoots more 3s than weird-looking long 2s. Wade NEVER shoots 3s. I have never watched a game and seen Wade shoot a 3.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

holy . Rick V's breakdown is a work of art. Now THAT'S how you call out someone's bull on something like this.

BTW, I can't help but observe some of those saying "Manu would get killed" are the same people who thought the world of Malik Rose. You want to talk about not making sense...

[Nikos]

I have watched almost every single Spur game this season on LP, and have seen about 25-30 Miami games (good portions of them). And there is no way in Manu can create a jumpshot while being contested and actually MAKE it with the accuracy of Wade.

Pull up all the stats you want, but Manu has airballed several shots with the clock winding down as long as they were CONTESTED. Wade makes them with a man in his grill on the outside (OFF THE DRIBBLE) Manu does not.

Do you actually watch the games? Manu hardly ever attempts mid range shots off the dribble with the shot clock winding down, and when he does he rarely comes close to making it.

Can someone else help me out here instead of pulling up stats of Manu's jumpshooting (with 3pters and open looks being considered).

Isn't is obvious that Wade creates jumpers in the clutch much better than Manu (who most of his jumpers with the shot clock winding down are courtesy of a pass and not off his own dribble.

ANYONE else notice this?

No Rick, we have chatted about this before. I love Manu's efficiency. I love how he gets to the line.

All I am saying that in close games, if Manu is being denied the drive he isn't a reliable shooter of the dribble when being tightly guarded. Wade can rise over the defender or fadeaway and make it consistently.

I am not making fun of Manu. if Manu could make the jumper off the dribble consistently he would be Wade's equal. But that is what makes him a borderline/fringe all star player as opposed to a PERENIAL all star like Wade.

Think about it?

PS Are you directing those stats at me? Cause I look at those stats just as much if not more than you . I am just trying to point out the flaw or area of the game in which Manu does not really excel at (and there are not many areas where he is at least not good or very good at).

[E20]

I'm gonna go with Manu. Why? Well, for one I am probably one of the most Manu homers ever, 2nd RVB gave you the statistical information. If you like Wade because he does it prettier than so be it.

[Nikos]

I'm gonna go with Manu. Why? Well, for one I am probably one of the most Manu homers ever, 2nd RVB gave you the statistical information. If you like Wade because he does it prettier than so be it.

I was aware of the stats before RVB posted them. I am a big stats guy. But I also watch a lot of games, and I like to point out player strengths and weaknesses and make comparisons. I feel you need to actually watch a bunch of games/teams to also get a feel with what the stats actually mean. It's nice to have both some subjectivity AND stats.

[Obstructed_View]

Did you just call a guy who's been in the league for two years and one all-star game a perennial all-star?

Dwayne Wade is seriously overrated. I think someone in here said it. Without Shaq, Wade is just another gifted guard. Without Duncan, Ginobili scores 25 a game.

[spursfan05]

give me manu! theres about 50 players who can do what wade does starting with kobe and ending with troy hudson. manu is a one of a kind player

[E20]

Well you could make an argument on how clutch Wade is with his famous off the dribble game winner jumpers and I'm not taking anything away from Wade but, I'm a homer so I pick Gino. And I'm sure there is a good argument to back up Manu and a good argument to back up Wade.

[Nikos]

Yes Wade will be a perennial all-star.

[Obstructed_View]

You said he is a perennial all star. He's been to exactly the same number as Ginobili, and he plays in the east.

[whottt]

Nikos...that's just the Spurs offense. It doesn't try to feature a midrange game.

It's 3 pointers or pentration...

IF you truly watch the games, you will know that the 2 things on offense Pop will yank a guy for instaneously...

Shooting a transition 3(and missing it), a guy putting it on the floor and chucking up a midrange J over a defender...you don't see guys doing that because Pop will put their ass on the bench for it.

Keep watching and if you notice, you are seeing Glenn Robinson spending more and more time camped out at the 3 point line...

Pop wants penetration, or he wants threes...

Ask Ron Mercer.

Manu had a good midrange shot when he first got here and he's gone more and more away from it with each passing year...

Brent Barry has had a good midrange shot his entire career and he hasn't shot it since about the 3rd week of the season.

Hopefully we won't got away from that with Big Dogg...but if he has a night where his shot isn't falling from midrange when he's trying to create....Pop will blow a gasket over it...wait and see.

[ducks]

dude what was the heat record last year
they were number 4 in the east


wade were good before shaq his body there

sure it has helped fat boy lost 60 pounds!

[T Park]

a guy putting it on the floor and chucking up a midrange J over a defender

Guess you have missed Robinson, especially last night.


BTW, Robinson missed one, and Popovich clapped, and said keep shooting.

So, god, hate to blow your "I Hate POP" Rant, but your wrong.

[whottt]

Guess you have missed Robinson, especially last night.


BTW, Robinson missed one, and Popovich clapped, and said keep shooting.

So, god, hate to blow your "I Hate POP" Rant, but your wrong.

Show me where I said I hate Pop or shut the up...

Your child molesting rants offend me...


And I would hope Pop would give the guy with the best midrange J in the game some ing leeway...

But I've never seen Robinson camped out at the 3 line as much as he has been in our last two series...

Wait until the honeymoon is over and see what happens...

[Rick Von Braun]

I have watched almost every single Spur game this season on LP, and have seen about 25-30 Miami games (good portions of them). And there is no way in Manu can create a jumpshot while being contested and actually MAKE it with the accuracy of Wade.

So you assume I don't watch the games either? Why you say that? Shall I take your word as fact?

Pull up all the stats you want, but Manu has airballed several shots with the clock winding down as long as they were CONTESTED. Wade makes them with a man in his grill on the outside (OFF THE DRIBBLE) Manu does not.

I've seen Wade do the same thing several times as well. Don't you honestly think Wade does not airball jumpshots? I remember several pull-up jumpers Manu has taking with 2 or even 4 hands in his face. Only in the Suns games back in January I remember Manu doing that at least 3 or 4 times. Look, it is all anecdotical evidence. People tend to remember what they want, and they tend to forget the actual facts. I presented proved facts to clarify the discussion, you can continue arguing about your vision of the reality as fact all you want.

Do you actually watch the games? Manu hardly ever attempts mid range shots off the dribble with the shot clock winding down, and when he does he rarely comes close to making it.

Can someone else help me out here instead of pulling up stats of Manu's jumpshooting (with 3pters and open looks being considered).

Isn't is obvious that Wade creates jumpers in the clutch much better than Manu (who most of his jumpers with the shot clock winding down are courtesy of a pass and not off his own dribble.

ANYONE else notice this?

Yes, you are right. I don't watch the games. You got me there

No Rick, we have chatted about this before. I love Manu's efficiency. I love how he gets to the line.

All I am saying that in close games, if Manu is being denied the drive he isn't a reliable shooter of the dribble when being tightly guarded. Wade can rise over the defender or fadeaway and make it consistently.

I am not making fun of Manu. if Manu could make the jumper off the dribble consistently he would be Wade's equal. But that is what makes him a borderline/fringe all star player as opposed to a PERENIAL all star like Wade.

Think about it?

I have thought about it, and I think you are wrong. I have presented some data to justify my opinion. It is obviously not enough, it never is on a web board full of egos instead of discussions.

PS Are you directing those stats at me? Cause I look at those stats just as much if not more than you . I am just trying to point out the flaw or area of the game in which Manu does not really excel at (and there are not many areas where he is at least not good or very good at).

For someone that looks at the stats so much, you seem to lack clarity and understanding. At the end of the day, Manu IS more effective than Wade in pressure situations. That is the bottom line, whether you like it or not.

I would like to continue this discussion based on facts. If you don't want to provide any it is your prerogative.

[smeagol]

RVB, awesome posts.

[HB22inSA]

Wade is a better player

Manu is a better Team player

I would say that's very accurate.

[MI21]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

[hendrix]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

Yeah... let's keep those statistics out and start considering all the intangibles, like 1-on-1 defense or court awareness, etc, etc...
And Manu doesnt take that many fadeaway 15 footers beacuse he doesn't need to, he chooses to drive to the rim and takes a foul. You need 3 guys to stop Manu doing that.

[Nikos]

"Stats can be used to prove anything Kent, 76% of people know that" - Homer Simpson

Those statistics are impressive RVB, but they don't take into account creating your own jumpshot off the dribble like Nikos is talking about, and there is a huge difference.

Manu is obviously the better jumpshooter of the 2 players, but most his jumpshots come off the Pick N Roll when the defender sags and covers the roll, or spotting up in transition or in the half court set. He doesn't drive hard right, plant his pivot foot and spin back left and shoot a fadeaway 15 footer and make it 3/4 times a game like Wade does. That is shooting off the dribble, and Wade is much more effective at those type of shots, anyone arguing that hasn't seen enough of either player this season.

You have to remember statistics lie as well, those statistics make Manu look like the best player in the entire world but we all know that isn't true because the best player in the world is Manu's teammate I dunno if you do this or not, but maybe you should rely on your own abilities to judge a player and make your own opinions rather than falling back on statistics all the time.

Thanks MI21.

Look I am not even trying to diss Manu. He is my favorite player with Duncan (yes Duncan is the reason I became a Spurs fan in the first place).

Anyhoo, Wade is just the better creator. Manu might even be a little better than the Spurs offense gives him credit for, but he also knows how to work with his teamattes efficiently. He doesn't force too many bad shots. But the fact is he has not proven he can hit that shot off the dribble with a hand in his face like the elite guards in the league.

Maybe he could do it better than he does now if he was allowed to, but he hasn't showed it yet.

Stats have their place in analysis. And yes I know you watch games, but it suprises me you do not think Wade is the better creator off the dribble in terms of mid range jump shooting? Just from your subjective viewpoint, can't you see that Wade is more of a creator off the dribble? He simply is able to get more seperation and straighter elevation on his J. Manu tends to drift to the side at times on his jumpers.

I know the stats show Manu is a more efficient player in the context of his team, but I am simply talking about a skill that stats can't really cover. Sure it is subjective, but at what point do you draw the line and use your stats in combination with subjectivity?

[MI21]

Yeah... let's keep those statistics out and start considering all the intangibles, like 1-on-1 defense or court awareness, etc, etc...
And Manu doesnt take that many fadeaway 15 footers beacuse he doesn't need to, he chooses to drive to the rim and takes a foul. You need 3 guys to stop Manu doing that.

Dwyane Wade is special, the fact that we are able to compare Manu to him is amazing, I never thought Manu would be that good. Manu has Wade beat on the 1on1 defense, but Wade isa good defender too, and both players benefit from having either #1 or #2 best player in the league defending the rim. Court awareness is even, Wade has fantastic vision and ability to know where to get on the court to score, and so does Manu. Taking a jab at Wade by saying Manu doesn't shoot the jumpshots Wade does because he doesn't have to is also stupid. Check out the FTA per game stats for the year and come back to me.

Anyway, I'm not sure why I would bother discussing with you hendrix, I've seen consistently bash Tony in chat for no reason, so you are obviously a fan of Manu, not of the team.