Who's better? Lamar Odom or Toni Kukoc?

[Killakobe81]

Scout: [email protected]
Lamar Odom is the complete package, he can shoot, handle the ball, and create his own shot. At 6-10 he reminds of Kevin Garnett, but i think he will be even better. He has a touch in clutch situations (Atlantic-10 Tournament) and is one of the most talented players to come into the draft in recent years. Anything less than # 3 would be unacceptable. The Clippers, and Bulls could use him, but Vancouver already has Shareef Abdur-Rahim. My one knock on him is he can't move without the ball. It is not as bad as everyone says, but with some solid coaching he will be the star of the future.

LOL dude thought he would be better than KG ...but that is how much talent Odom was thought to have ...

[JamStone]

I agree with most of this. But disagree on talent, which I admit is hard to define. I think Kukoc was more "skilled" ... footwork, abilty to create passing angles etc. but Lamar more talented and not just athletically. Jam is right I think Kukoc was never used to his full capabilities though you can make some of the same case for Lamar. I think though Lamar had a higher "cieling" he just never reached it.

People forget that Lamar was the #1 HS player in the nation coming out of HS ...and his first few years (though I thought people were crazy) drew comaprisons to Magic. In fact I remember a local reporter (L.A.)created some controversy by saying the Lakers should trade Kobe for Odom (during the ego wars) because Odom could potentially score 20 but was a more willing passer and would only get better. That was the "talent and potential" LO has/had.
I think Sonny vaccaro (AAU/ADDidas) HS guru ranked Odom with lebron as some of the greatest HS level talent he ever scouted ...

If you're going to talk about how Lamar Odom was viewed as a high school player and out of college, you probably should take a look at Kukoc's international career prior to joining the Bulls. He was considered the European version of Magic Johnson. He dominated the Euroleague like Jordan dominated the NBA. 3 time Euroleague Final Four MVPs, FIBA World Championship MVP, European Championship MVP, 2 time Euroscar Player of the Year, an Italian Championship and Italian Cup winner, 2 Olympic silver medals, 1 World Championship gold medal, 2 European World Championship gold medals... all by the age of 25. The guy had a better international resume than Manu Ginobili. And we all know how Ginobili's international career is revered.

Kukoc was a full on beast. He was a 6'11 small forward (just like Odom) except in an era where most small forwards were 6'7. His vision has been talked upon but not enough. He averaged about 4 assists a game during that second Bulls championship threepeat. And think about that with how limited his facilitating touches were on those Bulls teams with Michael and Scottie and he did it in under 30 minutes a game. He had phenomenal vision and passing ability, and never got to fully showcase it. Odom is a better dribbler. Someone already noted how Toni couldn't really dribble with his right hand. But as a passer and playmaker, Kukoc was great.

[JamStone]

Again. I am not saying you always pick the better athlete. You consider both, skill and athleticism. Both. Not one.

When both considered Odom > Kukoc just like Griffin > old Duncan.

Your comparison is faulty because as you already noted, with Odom and Kukoc you're comparing careers while your analogy is comparing Blake Griffin now to Duncan now.

How about a 25 year old Duncan? Blake Griffin is still faster, stronger, more athletic. Who do you take? Blake Griffin or a 25 year old Tim Duncan?

[tlongII]

Lamar Odom is clearly a better player. However, I voted for Toni Kukoc.

[dunkman]

Unfortunately, Odom got clipperized during his first four seasons. Anyway, he's way better player than Kukoc ever was. Kukoc was more like Hedo, except that Hedo plays good defense and is a legit PF.

[JamStone]

A lot of Spurs fans talk about how Manu Ginobili will be a HOFer because of his international resume. I think now that Toni Kukoc is eligible (the end of this current season makes it five years of retirement for Kukoc, the waiting period for the HOF), it will be very interesting to see if he gets in and it might give some insight on Ginobili's chances of getting into the HOF.

[JamStone]

Unfortunately, Odom got clipperized during his first four seasons. Anyway, he's way better player than Kukoc ever was. Kukoc was more like Hedo, except that Hedo plays good defense and is a legit PF.

[lefty]

+1

[Phillip]

oh my

hedo

defense?

PF?

rofl

[dunkman]

Hedo typically played SF during his career (he was SG for the Spurs), but the point is he can really play PF, Kukoc didn't look good at PF. Hedo has some foot speed, I remember him guarding Kobe decently at some point. He's much better defensive player than Kukoc.

On the other hand, Kukoc had a great career in Europe winning 3 consecutive Euro championships.

[JamStone]

Calling Hedo a legit PF is like calling Kobe a legit pass first PG

[dunkman]

Keep in mind that Odom, Kukoc and Hedo can play PG, SG, SF and PF. The point is how.

While Kobe handles the rock quite well, he plays SG and SF only.

[JamStone]

Hedo is a trainwreck at PF. Being played at a position doesn't make a player legit at it. Kobe is capable of playing point guard. He has the skills and talent to play PG. And in the triangle offense, for all intents and purposes, Kobe does play PG as the main facilitator. Check out who has led the Lakers in assists for most of Kobe's career. But Kobe will never be mistaken for a "pass first" PG, that's why I included that specficially. Hedo does not look good playing PF unless he's matched up against another SF/PF combo/hybrid guy. Odom can actually play PF. Hedo can't. A team can play him at PF. Doesn't mean he's playing that position well.

[Muser]

Hedo is dog at either position.

[Kyle Orton]

Again

More mpg for Odom

Rofl the classic Spurfan "his per minute numbers were better " argument

[Pelicans78]

Kukoc was probably better offensively, but Odom was much better defensively and all-around player.

[Killakobe81]

If you're going to talk about how Lamar Odom was viewed as a high school player and out of college, you probably should take a look at Kukoc's international career prior to joining the Bulls. He was considered the European version of Magic Johnson. He dominated the Euroleague like Jordan dominated the NBA. 3 time Euroleague Final Four MVPs, FIBA World Championship MVP, European Championship MVP, 2 time Euroscar Player of the Year, an Italian Championship and Italian Cup winner, 2 Olympic silver medals, 1 World Championship gold medal, 2 European World Championship gold medals... all by the age of 25. The guy had a better international resume than Manu Ginobili. And we all know how Ginobili's international career is revered.

Kukoc was a full on beast. He was a 6'11 small forward (just like Odom) except in an era where most small forwards were 6'7. His vision has been talked upon but not enough. He averaged about 4 assists a game during that second Bulls championship threepeat. And think about that with how limited his facilitating touches were on those Bulls teams with Michael and Scottie and he did it in under 30 minutes a game. He had phenomenal vision and passing ability, and never got to fully showcase it. Odom is a better dribbler. Someone already noted how Toni couldn't really dribble with his right hand. But as a passer and playmaker, Kukoc was great.

I dont disagree with most of this. Problem is most of us did not see it. Again Euro ball now is much better than it was back then. I am not saying it was not legit .. the numbers he put up or the skills he displayed. My point was that I would argue that the #1 HS player in almost any typical year in the US has a lot more talent and potential than the best player in europe. If we look at the best Eurpean players ... outside of Sabonis who would you put over the top US high schol player at the same age? Outside of Europe? Yao and Sabonis maybe? even Dirk and Pau would not get that kind of consideration.
The top HS players of the past 15 years: LBJ, Durant, Rose, KG, Kobe, almost all had more talent and potential than kukoc and that includes Odom. the problem is many of them : Oden, Lamar (to some degree) OJ Mayo fail to fully realize that talent. My point was that Lamar in the NBA and as far as talent potential to me was superior to Kukoc. I stand by that. I don't discount what he did in europe because I saw him play in international world's/Olympics and he was pretty damn good. But Odom was blessed with or developed many of the same skills with better athleticism and became the top HS player in the nation with more elite players than any country in the world.

And I know this makes me sound like a flag waving to some extent, but I stand by my point ... LOL.

[Kyle Orton]

I'm curious how 11.6 PPG on 44.7% shooting is better than 14.6 PPG on 46.9% shooting. Not just saying that too Hornets78, there seems to be a consensus in this thread that Kukoc was better offensively and I'm not exactly sure why.

[Venti Quattro]

Kukoc was as versatile as LO

Lefty trying to make everyone laugh. Real good one-liner!!!

[Killakobe81]

Hedo is a trainwreck at PF. Being played at a position doesn't make a player legit at it. Kobe is capable of playing point guard. He has the skills and talent to play PG. And in the triangle offense, for all intents and purposes, Kobe does play PG as the main facilitator. Check out who has led the Lakers in assists for most of Kobe's career. But Kobe will never be mistaken for a "pass first" PG, that's why I included that specficially. Hedo does not look good playing PF unless he's matched up against another SF/PF combo/hybrid guy. Odom can actually play PF. Hedo can't. A team can play him at PF. Doesn't mean he's playing that position well.

agree. hedo is best when he uses his size on SF's on offense to see and shoot over his foes. and when he can use his length to distract shooters ...

[Kyle Orton]

OMG Lefty is soooooooo funny

[Venti Quattro]

The only thing really that I can see Toni having an advantage over Lamar is three-point shooting. And probably hitting clutch shots.

The other stuff are open for debate.

[xellos88330]

I am gonna go with Odom on this one. Kukoc was great and all, but Odom seems too do more on the defensive side of the ball. He can affect the game on both sides of the floor.

[Pelicans78]

I dont disagree with most of this. Problem is most of us did not see it. Again Euro ball now is much better than it was back then. I am not saying it was not legit .. the numbers he put up or the skills he displayed. My point was that I would argue that the #1 HS player in almost any typical year in the US has a lot more talent and potential than the best player in europe. If we look at the best Eurpean players ... outside of Sabonis who would you put over the top US high schol player at the same age? Outside of Europe? Yao and Sabonis maybe? even Dirk and Pau would not get that kind of consideration.
The top HS players of the past 15 years: LBJ, Durant, Rose, KG, Kobe, almost all had more talent and potential than kukoc and that includes Odom. the problem is many of them : Oden, Lamar (to some degree) OJ Mayo fail to fully realize that talent. My point was that Lamar in the NBA and as far as talent potential to me was superior to Kukoc. I stand by that. I don't discount what he did in europe because I saw him play in international world's/Olympics and he was pretty damn good. But Odom was blessed with or developed many of the same skills with better athleticism and became the top HS player in the nation with more elite players than any country in the world.

And I know this makes me sound like a flag waving to some extent, but I stand by my point ... LOL.

I think Dirk was an exception as well. He was clearly better than any US high schooler the year he came out. He dominated the Hoops Summit game, but the US class wasn't that great anyway. I believe it was the class of Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis.

[lefty]

Rofl the classic Spurfan "his per minute numbers were better " argument

Lol at YOUR arguments