Manu top 5

[violentkitten]

play with yourself all you want. nobody cares.

[MadDog73]

I'm just playing with you changing my team from La to Detroit...just to add some piss into the fire....I still bleed purple and gold...oh and slava is hot like lava....redemption year 2005-2006

Can we really trust someone's opinion of Manu if that person thinks "slava is hot like lava" !?! (Man, that hurt just typing it).

[smeagol]

Tim makes anyone better

This is true in many cases but not always (see Brent Barry).

Manu has excelled on every team he has played (Argentina, Italy, Argentina National Team and now the Spurs). Only in the Spurs he is playing beside Tim. i.e. Manu would play well on any NBA Team.

[violentkitten]

I actually disagree with you Matt.

Without getting into salary issues, trades, cap, etc etc,
and assuming this scenario is realistic, your reasoning assumes that you build teams like legos, and the players' expected performances are exactly or similar as they are with their current teams. Nothing further from the truth.

It goes along the lines of... Ray Allen is a great shooter, we play inside out, when other teams double team TD, Ray Allen will make them pay with his jumpshot. He would be awesome!

I heard similar things when Brent Barry became a Spurs not so long ago (and I am not comparing them, but I hope you catch my gist). Brent is a very intelligent basketball player with a soft touch and good guy. It was supposed that Tim Duncan would make him even better, right? All his numbers are down, he couldn't adapt to the current Spurs' system. What makes you believe any player can play under the current system and conditions?

What most people fail to realize is that Ray Allen needs the ball in his hands to be effective and a large number of FGA/g. In the last 3 years Allen has taken:

year FGA/g FG% 3P%
02-03 18.17 .439 .377
03-04 18.16 .440 .392
04-05 19.15 .428 .376

In this playoffs, Ray has taken:
year FGA/g FG% 3P%
04-05 19.54 .474 .378

If you expect Ray Allen to take a lesser role, you don't know him. I do not expect him to significantly reduce his touches. This implies two things...

1) Either Tony Parker drastically reduce the number of touches he gets.

2) The Spurs completely change their offense (increase the pace) to allow an increase on the number attempt per game (we become a running team).

Tim takes 18.22 FGA/g and Tony 16.5 FGA/g. They both take the most FGA/g on the Spurs team. People still don't realize that Manu is having this increadible run while taking only 12.5 FGA/g and without significantly changing the Spurs offense. This is what is the most remarkable aspect of his performance, and I can guarantee that NO other player in the league can perform as well as he had in the playoffs with the limited touches and role given to him by Pop. NONE!

yet ray ray has produced with those additional touches. and thats with danny fortson and reggie evans up front.

sure, manu is great at making the most of his touches, but those touches come with the league's best frontcourt player demanding attention.

[nkdlunch]

yet ray ray has produced with those additional touches. and thats with danny fortson and reggie evans up front.

sure, manu is great at making the most of his touches, but those touches come with the league's best frontcourt player demanding attention.

Didn't manu score a few 30,40 point games when Tim was injured?

[Rick Von Braun]

.

[Rick Von Braun]

I don't agree with the way you count "touches".
While Manu shoots only 12.5 FG/g, he also shoots a lot of free throws and when you shoot free throws you are also giving back the ball to the opponent.
That's why I think you should use more point per possession stats than points per shots.

No matter how you measure it, Manu is the most efficient player by a good margin. There has been some discussions as to how to measure a possession. While there is no unique agreement as to what is the best way to measure possessions in the basketball statistical community, a formula commonly used is given by:

Poss = FGA - OR + TO + FTA/2

Poss: Possessions
FGA: Field Goal Attempts
OR: Offensive Rebounds
TO: Turnovers
FTA: Free Throws Attempted

Note that this formula is not perfect. Good Offensive rebounders that don't shoot much get a lot of free possesions. In addition, FTs always takes possessions away, even if they are technical FTs or And 1 FTs. Note that the last point significantly increases Manu's possesions, since he shoots most of the Spurs' technical FTs, flagrant fouls, and And 1 FTs.

Dean Smith, the former Hall of Fame coach from the University of North Carolina, made an efficiency rating very popular that evaluated how many points per possession his team, and his opponents, was getting. He found that this goal of 1 point per possession was a good benchmark to determine how well a team played. More than 1pt/poss is good while less than 1pt/poss left room for improvement.

The Pts/Poss of the Spurs' triumvirate are:

Manu Ginobili 1.18
Tim Duncan 1.10
Tony Parker 0.87

Manu has one of the best Pts/Poss rates in this playoffs, even better than Timmy who is a very efficient player.

Manu is shooting a lot of free throws and that's one reason why he has such an amazing point per shot average.

Look, the notion that Manu is amazing just because he is shooting (and making) a lot of FTs was debunked when I made a comparison with Dywane Wade not so long ago.

You don't like FTs, very well, let's get rid of them. Let's use Adjusted Field Goal Percentage.

AFG%: Adjusted FG Percentage = [(PTS - FTM)/FGA]/2
ADJ FG% measures shooting efficiency by taking into account the total points a player produces through his field goal attempts. The intention of this adjustment is largely to evaluate the impact of three-point shooting. For ex: If Shaquille O'Neal has 3-5 FG, all two-point shots for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600. Meanwhile, if Ray Allen is 2-5 FG, but his 2 FGM are both three-pointers for 6 points, then his ADJ FG% = [(6/5)]/2 = .600

Manu ranks 5th (0.609) in ADJ FG% among all players in the playoffs, and he is the top Spurs player by a wide margin as well (TD ranks 39th with 0.483, TP ranks 43rd with 0.468).

Ohh... but Manu is on top just because he is a very good 3PT shooter. Ok, let's get rid of the FTs and the treys. How is Manu shooting 2Pters?

Manu ranks 13th (0.550) in 2P% in the playoffs, right ahead of Nazr (14th, 0.548), and above Tony (36th, 0.492) and Timmy (39th, 0.486).

So no matter how you slice it, Manu's performance is not due to just hitting a large number of FTs.

[manu = balki]

don't be ridikalus. i no top 5. i top 1. duncan no make me better. manu make duncan better. i no be stopped. i win game for spurs. i basketball god. i be in hall of fame soon. i no stop play till i 50. i win mvp next year.

[beck253]

I think the best way to determine this is the old "who would you take scenario". Let's say the NBA decides to throw everyone in a pot and do a draft, how will you draft in the first round? As much as I love Manu, here are the list of the guys I would take over him and why.

Timmy - obvious
Shaq - As much as you hate him, you cannot argue with his size and ability
Garnett - Great big men are harder to find than great guards
Stoudamire - Amazing and hasn't even matured yet
Lebron - Great size, Great scorer, Great team player, Great potential

In the mix with Manu:
Wade - Very, very good and is much younger
McGrady - Can score, all spurs fans know that all too well
Bryant - Forget the at ude, you can't deny how good he is
Iverson - Can score, has heart, and will pass to those he trusts to score
Dirk Diggler - A very versatile big man.

So my call is that Manu is top 10, but is possibly on the verge of being top 5. Give him another year. If he produces like he has during the playoffs for the entire season then he is fighting for top 3.

Player less, player more (you forgot Nash) regarding the list, I agree with your take.
I consider Manu during this regular season was around the 18-20th place.
After this playoffs, he has raised around 7th-12th

[NZHayden]

id say hes the best international player in the nba at the moment