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If I had been able to, Kori, I would have responded yesterday. But this is the first hour or so of free time I've had, so I'm responding now.
I didn't want to look like I had abandoned or conceded the point.
+/- stats are a nice tool, but they don't tell the whole story for the purposes of this debate. For example, what effect does altering the usual rotation have on players who are on the bench longer than usual because of Brown's minutes? Does altering the subs ution pattern this drastically take other players out of their rhythm?
Once again, you can't put any of this on Devin personally... but at this point, we're looking at results. And while the Spurs have not always been able to climb out of defecits without Devin on the floor, there are no examples of them ever climbing out of one WITH him on the floor.
If I had been able to, Kori, I would have responded yesterday. But this is the first hour or so of free time I've had, so I'm responding now.
I didn't want to look like I had abandoned or conceded the point.
Exactly.
It's okay. It wasn't really directed at you. I'm just tired of hearing about Barry and Devin. The Spurs really need the Big 3 to step up and tonight's game needs to hurry up and start.
I've proven you wrong plenty over the last couple weeks and you just squirm and post until you change the subject and pretend you were right all along. Either that or you just hide for a few days and let the thread disappear.
I've never once seen you admit to being 100% wrong about something. Give me a link to a time this has occured.
It doesn't exist.
Your whole argument is based on +/- from the regular season. What are you talking about?You are attempting to refute my claims with a limited +/- sample....You show me where I have used Devin's +/- to make my claims...I haven't.
Yeah, this playoffs where Devin has played significant minutes in one game -- in which they were down 17 points when he went in.If I wanted to do that I could just use this years playoff +/-...I just don't think it's very accurate. It's not what my argument is based on.
Most of these numbers are simple to explain. When the Spurs are getting beat, Barry does nothing to bring a team back. He's a placeholder ... no more, no less. You put him in up 5 and he'll do his best to keep the team up 5. Pop always goes do Devin when the team needs a spark or when they are losing and he's trying to find a combination that will work. He NEVER goes to Barry when the team is folding and nothing seems to be working. Barry only gets minutes when the team is rolling and when they usually have a lead. He goes in there, tries not to mess up and holds his place.My point has always been based on minutes and what happens to the team when Devin gets big minutes..and what happens when Barry doesn't.
Look at the +/-'s that timvp and Karl Mundt posted. If Devin wouldn't have played in that series, it would have been a bigger beating that the 2001 playoffs. If he would have played more minutes, the Spurs could have won.And even though I never did this in originally when making my points on Devin's impact(or lack of)...
The Laker series backs me up..
We never scored more than 81 points in a game where Devin played more than 20 minutes against LA...And we didn't win any of them either.
And no, I am not saying he is the cause of it...he's just damn sure not the cure.
Our record in that series when Devin played more than 20 minutes was 0-3.
Refute that.
After Karl Mundt did the research, I'm sure he'd agree that when Devin was in the game, the Spurs played much better. Devin couldn't control what the Spurs did when he was on the bench and putting themselves in that huge hole.
And notice how the Spurs had were actually beating the Lakers in three out of the final four games with him in the lineup.
Like I said again, your numbers get skewed when Pop uses you as the player who has to spark a dying team and the player who plays when the game is over and he's resting the older players.Now go look at my research done this season and look what Devin did...he averaged 20 minutes per game in losses and 17 mins per game in wins.
Sorry you're not bright enough to follow a long.
Yeah because he only plays when the Spurs are winning. Figure that.Conversely...When Barry played under 10 minutes we had a losing record...and our winning PCT dipped when his minutes went under 15. There was a strong correlation between his minutes and our winning PCT...and offensive output.
Did you just type a bunch of random words together to up your post count? That doesn't make any sense and doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
Bring something.
Wow. That's quite an assertion. I can only guess that the point of your argument has something to do with this series? If not, the point is moot.
If so, than whose minutes does Devin take? Manu's? Tim's? Horry's? Nazr + Rasho's?
Who do you take out so Devin can play 30 minutes and win the game for us tonight?
Where have I said to go to Devin this postseason?
He's been too injured to play until about two days ago. He's probably still too injured to contribute. I was debunking the myth that had been spreading since the Lakers series last year and into the regular season.
I never said anything about how Devin should play this postseason.
Did you just type a bunch of random words together to up your post count? That doesn't make any sense and doesn't have anything to do with this thread.
Bring something.
see my above post. You're using +/- to tell me Devin is this teams potential superstar. I've always been dubious of +/- stats, because it doesn't tell the whole story.
This is not baseball. You can't look at the numbers and tell exactly what happened. There are so many intangibles (saved balls, hustle plays, deflections, etc.) that are not recorded you just can't come up with a simple equation to show you who will win a game, or who to take in and out of any given situation. If there was, basketball would be much easier to coach.
As for bringing something, I'm not the one claiming Devin Brown needs to play more minutes for the Spurs to win, as you seem to be.
If that's not what you're saying, than again I must ask, what is your point?
This is not 2004, and we are not playing the Lakers.
Where have I said to go to Devin this postseason?
He's been too injured to play until about two days ago. He's probably still too injured to contribute. I was debunking the myth that had been spreading since the Lakers series last year and into the regular season.
I never said anything about how Devin should play this postseason.
Then what's your ing point of this thread? Who the cares about 2004 anymore! Quit living in the past, and bring a decent take about this year's series.
God damn, am I the only one sick of Timvp and whottt's little feud?
No one is saying that Devin is a potential superstar. Merely that he's a role player that could make a difference.You're using +/- to tell me Devin is this teams potential superstar.
This thread was started because Whottt repeatedly said that Devin Brown didn't help the team last year during the Lakers series. He said he plays on and island and doesn't improve the team. This thread was only about that -- it's an ongoing conversation between Whottt and timvp. If you don't understand the history of it, it probably doesn't make sense to you.
Why don't you just shut up and not coming in the thread then? Is someone forcing you to post in this thread?
I think I understand all to well. IMO, these two should have a PM conversation about this, or put it in a "History" thread, because it has nothing to do with Game 5 which starts in 5 hours.
But I guess I'm the only one who feels that way....
No. But I'm still en led to my opinion, right?
Besides, my beef is not with you Kori, it's with your hubby.
People can talk about whatever they want related to basketball in the forum. People are even talking about Jason Kidd. So what is it to you?
Just don't read the thread.
That is a very simplistic way of looking at things. Looking at minutes played and then whether the team wins or losses doesn't tell much of a story. Like last game, yeah Devin played more minutes than Barry but what about the quarter of garbage time that Devin played. What about the fact that he came into the game and the Spurs were down 17 and he led the charge to bring them within 9. All of that is lost when you pull a Whottt and say "Hey look Barry played 11 minutes and Devin played 20 minutes and the Spurs lost".
That is caveman basketball research. The better way to do it is to look how the team did while each individual player was on the court. You bring up valid concerns about altered rotation, playing time, etc ... but if a player is on the court and the team is in the positive, and without him the team is 20 points down ... the problem isn't with the player being on the court.
And while the Spurs have not always been able to climb out of defecits without Devin on the floor, there are no examples of them ever climbing out of one WITH him on the floor.
Never? Are you looking at these playoffs where he's been injured the whole time or are you saying his whole career?
Damn, MadDog if you don't understand what is being discussed, then why do you keep posting? Those involved know what is being discussed. You obviously haven't seen the myth that has circulated this forum.
The conversation is about figuring out whether the myth that "Devin always hurts the team no matter what when he's on the court" is true. It pertains to last season, this season and in the summer when the Spurs have to decide whether to re-sign him.
This is a discussion board. It's what we do.
Discuss.
They're a west-coast marijuana cartel. You haven't heard of them. They're HUGE in Europe, too.
And their amps go all the way to ELEVEN!
timvp's analysis only confirms what those of us who don't have "Barry's Booty" tattoed above our asses know: Devin Brown is a postseason player, he's a compe or, he plays to win.
As for those of you who say that he doesn't make much of an impact most times, well, look at the spot at which he usually enters the game when he's not a part of the rotation...when the Spurs are down or up 20. This team is a lot better with him in the rotation and Brent waving the towel on the bench with Radoslav.
Some of you must not be watching the same team or you must be afflicted with Barryitis.
We lost.
It was a trend in last years playoffs. It was trend in this years regular season. It is a trend in these playoffs.
Oh but you got +/- from a 6 game series 4 games of which were losses...to prove me wrong...talk about irony.
Using 6 games worth of +/- stats is more skewed than anything I have done.Like I said again, your numbers get skewed when Pop uses you as the player who has to spark a dying team and the player who plays when the game is over and he's resting the older players.
You just see what you want to see...I am just wating for a single win...is one to much to ask for?Sorry you're not bright enough to follow a long.
I've proven you wrong plenty over the last couple weeks and you just squirm and post until you change the subject and pretend you were right all along. Either that or you just hide for a few days and let the thread disappear.
Um that's not true...I pretty much admit I am wrong every single time I am...I admitted was wrong on something yesterday. That thing about the Seattle Series...
Go look at your classic threads also...and see if that's true.
OTOH...the next time I see you admit error will be the first.
I remember a midseason thread after Devin Brown got injured when you said Barry would choke and couldn't handle the pressure and I said he would step up when he was needed...he lead team in scoring off the bench, I believe 4 out of the next 5 games...and I never heard a peep about it from you. Except you all of a sudden wanted to judge by playoffs instead of regular season...
I've never once seen you admit to being 100% wrong about something. Give me a link to a time this has occured.
That stat argument about the Pistons for one thing...The one about the Seattle series?
No it's not..it's based on what minutes played and W-L...go click on the link of Devin VS Brent the numbers speak for themselves...it's not a +/- argument.Your whole argument is based on +/- from the regular season. What are you talking about?
And the margin got worse...Yeah, this playoffs where Devin has played significant minutes in one game -- in which they were down 17 points when he went in.
False...that Phoenix game, the Nets game, the Golden State Double OT game...Most of these numbers are simple to explain. When the Spurs are getting beat, Barry does nothing to bring a team back. He's a placeholder ... no more, no less.
You are wrong about that...Barry has been the common denominator in just about all of our comeback wins.
On top of that...I believe we average over 100PPG when he starts...about that same amount when he gets over 30 mins per game...
He started in our highest scoring game of the regular season and playoffs...and he got big minutes in both. And those weren't just our highest scoring games...they second highest scoring games this season in both categories...
And the regular season game was without Duncan and Manu and Devin.
You put him in up 5 and he'll do his best to keep the team up 5. Pop always goes do Devin when the team needs a spark or when they are losing and he's trying to find a combination that will work.
And it hardly ever works...it never works in the playoffs.
You call me simple minded but you can't appreciate the skills of Barry because he doesn't go out there trying to take over the game, lead the team in scoring off the bench, and jack up ....He NEVER goes to Barry when the team is folding and nothing seems to be working. Barry only gets minutes when the team is rolling and when they usually have a lead. He goes in there, tries not to mess up and holds his place.
EG...right now...he leads the team in Effective FG%...
You need to read the disclaimer about how inaccurate +/- in that small of a sample size...I'd still recognize it though if was backed by wins...it isn't in Devin's case...it's back by uncharacteristically bad losses..Look at the +/-'s that timvp and Karl Mundt posted. If Devin wouldn't have played in that series, it would have been a bigger beating that the 2001 playoffs. If he would have played more minutes, the Spurs could have won.
We made it to the finals without Devin TimVP...we made it through the first 2 games...In convincing fashion...ditto the first 2 games VS LA last year and the Memphis series.After Karl Mundt did the research, I'm sure he'd agree that when Devin was in the game, the Spurs played much better. Devin couldn't control what the Spurs did when he was on the bench and putting themselves in that huge hole.
Good times for Devin = Bad Times for the team.
If only Barry played the game with the same level of diligence and desire that whottt has shown in arguing impossible positions might the Spurs be in a better position...
How does Whottt turn every thread into a Brent Barry discussion? I didn't even mention Barry in the first post of this thread. It had nothing to do with Barry.
Yet Whottt spins it into a Devin vs. Brent discussion. I don't know if you are married to Billion, but it'd be nice if for once a thread you are in doesn't turn into how wronged Barry is.
That marriage thing actually makes sense now. Arguing with you is like arguing with the wife ... I never win even if I'm right
Try to stick to the subject next time, Erin.
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