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whottt to rebunk in 5....4....3....
A rumor has run rampant in this forum for over a year now. Until this time, I haven't double checked the accuracy of the rumor. The rumor was perpetuated by Whottt and given that Whottt is such an articulate poster, I always assumed it was true. I've seen many other posters here make mention of the rumor and it as factual.
Here is what I'm talking about:
So basically what Whottt has said and others have followed is that even though Devin Brown played well in the Lakers series last year, him playing well did nothing for the Spurs. He even goes on to say that the Spurs play worse when Devin plays well.
The rumor turns out to be false.
After going back and looking to see what Devin did last year in the playoffs against the Lakers, quite the opposite is true. He was the lone bright spot for the Spurs. He took his game up to a high level and the rest of the team followed him.
Game 1
The Spurs win by 10 points, 88-78. Devin Brown plays 14 minutes and scores eight points. In his 14 minutes on the court, Brown has a +4. That means in the 34 minutes he was on the bench, the Spurs had a +6. Per 48 minutes, Devin had a +13.7. Without Devin, the Spurs had a +8.5. That is a -4.2 with Devin on the bench compared to when he's on the court.
Game 2
The Spurs win this game by 10 points, 95-85. Devin Brown plays 13 minutes and the Spurs are +9 when he's in the game. With him on the bench, they were +1. That means per 48 minutes, the Spurs were +33.2 when Devin was in the game and +1.8 when he was out of the game. That is a difference of 31.4 points.
Game 3
In game three, the Spurs lose 105-81. Despite the complete and utter blowout, Devin brown was only a -2 in his 24 minutes on the court. That means in the other 24 minutes, the Spurs were a -22. For the game, Devin was the team's second leading scorer with 16 points. By the time he went back into the game in the second half, the game was over -- as the Spurs were down by 22 points. Per 48 minutes, the Spurs were a -4 with Devin on the court and -44 with him off the court. That is a 40 point swing with Devin on the bench.
Game 4
In game four, the Spurs lost 98-90. They played well early but faded and ended up losing the game. Devin played 16 minutes, in which the Spurs were outscored by four points. He was a +4 in the first half and a -8 in the third quarter, which also came during the same time period that Tim was resting. Devin didn't play in the fourth quarter. So per 48 minutes, the Spurs were outscored by 12 when Devin was on the court and by 6 when he was off the court. This was the one game that the Spurs were actually better with Devin out of the game. But keep in mind he didn't play at all in the fourth.
Game 5
In the game that every Spurs fan is still trying to forget, the Spurs lost at the buzzer 74-73. Devin was one of the few bright spots for the Spurs, as he scored 11 points in 24 minutes. During the 24 minutes he was on the court, the Spurs were +7. In the 24 minutes he was on the bench, the Spurs were -8. That means per 48 minutes, the Spurs were +14 with Devin in the game and -16 with him out of the game. That a difference of 30 points in Devin's favor.
Game 6
With the Spurs facing an must win game, Devin Brown came up huge again. He had 15 points, six rebounds and three assists in 28 minutes as the Spurs lost 88-76. In those 28 minutes Devin played, the Spurs were +5. In the 20 minutes he was on the bench, the Spurs were -17. Per 48 minutes, the Spurs were +8.6 with Devin in the game and -40.8 with Devin on the sidelines. That's a difference of 49.4 points.
In conclusion, to say that Devin Brown hurt the Spurs when he was on the court against the Lakers is not only baseless but appalling. Devin Brown was the reason the Spurs didn't get destroyed last year in the playoffs. For the series, the Spurs were +19 when Devin was on the court. When Devin wasn't on the court, the Spurs were -44. Extrapolate that to 48 minutes and the Spurs were +149 with Devin on the court. Those are numbers out of this world.
Basically, this myth can't be any more wrong. Not only did Devin help the Spurs last year in the playoffs, he carried them. Without him, the numbers say the Spurs would have been destroyed worse than in 2001. Numbers such as these can't be passed off as fluke. They prove that in big games, Devin has a history of coming up huge.
We saw this last night in game four of the Finals. When all the other Spurs looked like they wanted to take the ball and go home, Devin came in and quickly cut a 17 point lead to 9 points. This isn't another fluke. Though his regular season +/- leave a lot to be desired, the regular season really means nothing to the Spurs. The Spurs are about championships and river parades. When the bright lights shine, Devin shines brightest.
Consider this myth debunked.
whottt to rebunk in 5....4....3....
I don't think this really debunks Whottt's point (or mine that I posted last night) because those games did not translate to victories. Nobody is saying Devin didn't play well in those games, but it just seems like whenever he is brought in ahead of the usual rotation or for more minutes than usual, it's almost like a white flag has been waved.
It's not Devin's fault... it may even be the rest of the team's fault for being unable to adapt to his presence on the floor. But I don't remember the last time he was brought into the Playoff game and it changed the momentum of a sloppy Spurs performance into a victory. It worked with Steve Kerr because he basically had one role: hit the open three. Devin brings a lot more offensive ability to the game, but maybe it's taking other Spurs out of their games.
The Spurs HAVE, more often, been able to right the ship with their usual lineup when they start off sloppy.
Who is Devin Brown?
That might be what you are saying. But that's not what Whottt's been saying. Whottt says that when Devin's on the floor, the Spurs are worse -- i.e. their leads shrink, or they go even deeper into a whole than they already are. This definitely proves that is not the case.
Who are the Trailblazers?
Well, I can't totally speak for Whottt... I didn't read the whole "re-sign Devin" thread.
LOL man is this where you have been all day? Why you wait until I going out to eat to post this?
Look...I am not blaming Devin for the loss, I don't blame him for last years loss...
but I still claim he doesn't make a difference, that his play seems to have no impact on the teams play as a whole, if anything the team seems to get lost during Devin getting hot... and it's going to take more than moral victories to disprove that..
Devin played well against LA? Never said he didn't...in fact you left out several of my quotes citing what he did individually...the dude shot 66% from 3...that's all you gotta say right there...he was the only guy hitting threes...
But I just don't buy that our entire team suddenly quits except for Devin Brown, as easily as you do...I think there is something there.
I think Devin just plays on Island...no one else is really involved when he has these games. What he does is not within the team framework...criticize Barry all you want but even in his bad games he goes to the stars on this team and he gets them shots or puts them in a position to get going...he defers to the best players instead of trying to do it all by himself.
It's kinda like Malik...Malik used to have some of his best games in losses too...but I've seen Malik alter the outcome of a game...I haven't seen Devin do that.
And I don't buy that what he does can make a difference in this series or lift the teams play back to where it was. I am not in favor of making a wholesale chemistry change because it didn't work last year...and last year looked a whole lot like last night.
It's not Devin's fault...but he's not the solution either...he never has been yet. And we made it this far with basically no contributions from him. Change things up now and you change what got us here...
Look at game one versus the Lakers. When he first came into the game, the Spurs were down. When he left, the Spurs were up by four. That is a game you can say translated to a victory.
Unable to adapt? How can you say that when he's like +150 for the series? You guys act like he goes into games and goes off scoring wise but the Spurs as a team go down.Nobody is saying Devin didn't play well in those games, but it just seems like whenever he is brought in ahead of the usual rotation or for more minutes than usual, it's almost like a white flag has been waved.
It's not Devin's fault... it may even be the rest of the team's fault for being unable to adapt to his presence on the floor.
The opposite is true. He comes in, plays whatever role is needed ... and the Spurs play better with him on the court. He's not Michael Jordan. If the Spurs are -44 for the series with him off the court, do you and Whottt expect him to erase all 44 points?
The Spurs played much better with him on the court and sucked with him on the bench. I don't know how you two always go to the "rest of the team can't adjust to him" comments. They obviously can, or else they wouldn't play so well with him out there.
It worked in game one and it would have worked in almost every game if he would have gotten the minutes. With him in the game, the Spurs outscored the Lakers in the series. For a series that the Lakers won by 25 points, that's huge.But I don't remember the last time he was brought into the Playoff game and it changed the momentum of a sloppy Spurs performance into a victory.
How is it taking away when the team plays so much better with him on the court?It worked with Steve Kerr because he basically had one role: hit the open three. Devin brings a lot more offensive ability to the game, but maybe it's taking other Spurs out of their games.
Answer me this, please.
Keep Brown, he is one of the last sparks off the bench since Jackson and Daniels.....
Actually I've been with Kori as she filmed a Roundtable and while she was on ESPN Radio for half an hour.
Thanks for asking
[QUOTE]Look...I am not blaming Devin for the loss, I don't blame him for last years loss...
but I still claim he doesn't make a difference, that his play seems to have no impact on the teams play as a whole, if anything the team seems to get lost during Devin getting hot[/QUOTE
WTF? Look at the numbers. The Spurs outscored the Lakers by 19 points with Devin in the lineup. How is that "no impact on the team's play"? That makes no sense.
When he was in the game versus the Lakers, the Spurs outscored the Lakers.
Period.
How is that not making a difference? Please let me know.
The rest of the team might not quit, but Devin steps up his level of play. Look at the numbers. The Spurs were outscored by 44 points when he was on the bench.Devin played well against LA? Never said he didn't...in fact you left out several of my quotes citing what he did individually...the dude shot 66% from 3...that's all you gotta say right there...he was the only guy hitting threes...
But I just don't buy that our entire team suddenly quits except for Devin Brown, as easily as you do...I think there is something there.
Explain how this happens. You can't say he makes no difference when he was the only person who was making a difference for the Spurs in the series.
You are basically saying you wanted him to outscore the Lakers by a margin so large that he can make up for the sucking that was going on while he was on the bench.
Bottomline is the Spurs outscored the Lakers by 19 with Devin in the game. There is nothing more to add to that. When he's on the bench, they sucked. When he played, they played well.I think Devin just plays on Island...no one else is really involved when he has these games. What he does is not within the team framework...criticize Barry all you want but even in his bad games he goes to the stars on this team and he gets them shots or puts them in a position to get going...he defers to the best players instead of trying to do it all by himself.
The stats don't lie.
Malik always had a low +/- because he played behind David Robinson and Tim Duncan. So yeah, I agree ... him playing well didn't have much to do with the Spurs winning or losing over the long haul.It's kinda like Malik...Malik used to have some of his best games in losses too...but I've seen Malik alter the outcome of a game...I haven't seen Devin do that.
But to say Devin didn't have a positive impact in the Lakers series last season is crazy.
It would have worked last year if the Spurs could have saved themselves from sinking when Devin was out of the game.And I don't buy that what he does can make a difference in this series or lift the teams play back to where it was. I am not in favor of making a wholesale chemistry change because it didn't work last year...and last year looked a whole lot like last night.
Check the numbers.
Brent Barry didn't get us here. Get your run of the mill backup two guard on this team and the Spurs would be in the Finals. You act like Brent Barry is the franchise player. He's not -- he's just the human placeholder who sometimes hits threes. He's good at not messing up too bad and hitting shots when wide open. Nothing special, nothing horrible.It's not Devin's fault...but he's not the solution either...he never has been yet. And we made it this far with basically no contributions from him. Change things up now and you change what got us here...
Right now the Spurs need something special. And unless you are blind or trying to spin numbers, you have to admit that what Devin did last year was special in the biggest pressure series perhaps in Spurs history.
And Whottt disappears and everyone who has been referencing this myth as fact doesn't own up.
I'm here all alone now.
sniff sniff
What Timvp is basicall trying to say is:
Whottt you dissed my boy so YOU.
Timvp, I have to ask:
What is the ing point of this thread?
To me, it sounds like you have a personal vendetta against whottt.
I mean, was it so tempting to start another anti-Berry thread that you felt guilty and had to dig to last year's conference semi-final with the Lakers to come up with some stupid that whottt said?
You couldn't find enough current stupid ?
No offense to whottt, he may be on to something. , when Barry scored 10 points in Game 3 on Tuesday, it didn't help the Spurs either. But I digress.
Why bring this up now, before Game 5, huh? Just curious....
Actually not. I don't care about one player more than any other. I want the team to win championships ... bottomline.
When Devin went down with his injury, I said it was good for the team because it forced Pop to make a decision on a backup swingman. I don't care who it is, if they can help the team or have a history of stepping up in big moments -- I want them out there.
The point of this thread is to debunk the notion that has been running rampant in this forum for more than a year. Numerous times during that era, posters have referenced the theory that if Devin plays, the team always suffers. As is noted by the first post in this thread, Whottt is one of the main players as far as putting blame on Brown when history shows that none is deserved.
Basically, it comes down to proving false the "If Devin Brown plays, the team's +/- is bad and the Spurs always lose ground" theory.
It's not only whottt, there are others who use that myth as fact. If I were to concentrate on proving Whottt wrong, I'd be here all day posting to him because we know how off base he's been lately.To me, it sounds like you have a personal vendetta against whottt.
How the heck is this an anti-Barry thread? It's a thread dedicated to proving Devin played well last playoffs and that his play helped the team. Barry wasn't on the team last year, in case you missed that.I mean, was it so tempting to start another anti-Berry thread that you felt guilty and had to dig to last year's conference semi-final with the Lakers to come up with some stupid that whottt said?
Does your post count?You couldn't find enough current stupid ?
Unfair to Barry.No offense to whottt, he may be on to something. , when Barry scored 10 points in Game 3 on Tuesday, it didn't help the Spurs either. But I digress.
There was a lot of talk lately about how Brown is not an option because the Spurs always lose ground in games even if Brown is playing well. Haven't you seen the threads and the posts? I honestly thought they were right just because everyone talks about it as if it were proven.Why bring this up now, before Game 5, huh? Just curious....
I just double checked to make sure and lo and behold ... it turns out to be another Whottt lie errrrr "mistake".
TIMVP >> Whott
I agree with timvp on the myth. It's something that really hasn't been based on anything except what a few people happen to think they're seeing at a particular time. And personally, I haven't seen it. It doesn't look like the Spurs play worse when he's on the floor. Timvp's statistaical analysis, while incomplete, suggests that there may be some truth to his assertion that the Spurs play better when he's on the floor. I can buy that.
But Whotttttttttt's claim that Brown plays on an island is true, at least on the offensive end. Brown doesn't have a very good feel for the game on the offensive end of the floor. He doesn't know when to shoot and when to pass. He doesn't know how to get opportunities for others. He's like Glenn Robinson, but not as bad. Glenn gets the ball, looks to shoot, and moves to another spot to force us a bad shot even if he's guarded closely. Brown always looks to shoot first, but he's more apt to pass the ball if the defense is about to pressure him into a bad shot.
That's not such a terrible thing, I guess. But there are times when a semi-open shot isn't the best shot. Especially if another player is dominating or that shot comes early in the shot clock. Brown doesn't understand when he should shoot and when he should pass. And if he's not shooting and scoring, he's not very useful.
That having been said, he had a good game four. And given that Barry has been dreadful throughout the regular season and playoffs (with the exception of one series), Brown should get some more playing time. He brings energy. He can score the ball. The Spurs need those two things right now.
I don't think he'll ever be much of an NBA player because I just don't think he really gets it, but he'll probably always be able to find a reserve role somewhere in the league. And he's capable of bringing to the table what the Spurs need most. He's more capable of making a difference that Barry is right now on both ends of the court, so Pop should give him some burn.
Basically, your only admitted evidence is last year's series against the Lakers. If you look at the +/- ratings for this season, you will see Devin has the worst +/- rating per minute aswell as the worst combined on court-off court +/- ratings behind marginal players like Wilks, Mohammed, Robinson, Marks and Massenburg. I don't quite see how using the +/- ratings works in favour with trying to prove Devin is a valuable player.
http://www.82games.com/0405SAS.HTM
Devin may have more heart and desire than most players on the team, and that's definitely a valuable commodity in the playoffs, but watching him, i can't really say i disagree with part of what whottt has been saying, in that Devin's good stats don't nesessarily equate to the team as a whole functioning better. He is in my opinion a somewhat selfish player whose primary preoccupation while he's on the court is to try and score and as a result the offense as a whole a lot of times turns stagnant.
Without forcing myself to research stuff I already know to be true...
I direct you to this thread:
Brent VS Devin: the numbers speak for themselves
Which examines the impact on team performance of Barry getting minutes VS Devin getting minutes.
And this thread:
Spurs player pairings
Which examines the effectiveness of Spurs players pairings...
The first thread has only been reaffirmed...in that thread I pointed out how Devin seems to pretty much be meaningless to the teams over all performance...
I should note...that thread was made before he had been out 3 months with injury...
What happened after he got injured...and the fact that we now find ourselves in the NBA finals, with him being an afterthought, for the entire playoff run...Only strengthens my argument.
The second thread...If you take look at the white down Devin's line...you will see there is not a single teamate who performs better with Devin on the court...
Make of the info what you will...but I don't hate Devin Brown...and the reasons I have the view on him that I do now is because of what the evidence tells me...
I was just as much of a Devin Brown fan as anyone during the Lakers series last year...and early in this year...but the evidence backing up my point now is very strong...You pretty much can't argue against it.
This doesn't mean Devin can't help the team...it just means he's not the cure all just because he goes out there and looks good.
No doubt Devin puts the energy and desire out...but it has no impact on the play of his teamates...it certainly doesn't fix their performance.
Whereas there is substantial evidence that guys do perform with Barry on the court.
As for his impact on our offense...that's indisputable, that's the beyond question...we are a much better offensive team with Barry on the court and getting minutes.
Devin has the potential to help this team quite a bit and there's no doubt he brings energy...
But simply put, Devin doesn't know how to be a role player at this stage of his career IMO...He's been a star on every team he's ever been on prior to this one...and he hasn't adjusted to being able to make an impact...without going out there and trying to take the game over all by himself.
Barry OTOH has been a sidekick his entire career...he's used to helping the stars perform better....
Different strengths...but if we want to win this series we need Duncan, Manu and Parker performing better and players that will help them do that...not Devin Brown out there trying to take over the game.
Last edited by whottt; 06-18-2005 at 04:12 PM.
I wanted to say one last thing on this subject...because we've kicked it around all season long...
Normally I rip Pop for not trying the hot hand when we need points...but when it comes to Devin or Brent...Pop needs to or get off the pot and stop being wish washy with it...We shouldn't even be having this debate right now but we are...and the main reason we are is because Pop still hasn't decided...it's not helping the team...
If Pop is just going to yank Barry and never let him get into the game because he makes 1 TO or something...then he just needs to go ahead and go with Devin win or lose so the team can find a rhythym...short hooking Barry and giving Devin half the time to be out there hasn't been good for this team all season long...
He just needs to pick his horse and ride it when it comes to these two.
I have a hunch he's going to go with Devin...and when he does that I hope that we win, because that's the most important thing...and I personally could give a how good Devin looks in an embarassing loss. I am not a Devin Brown fan...I am a Spursfan.
Karl Mundt and Whottt must have missed the part where I said that the regular season doesn't matter. This is the San Antonio Spurs we are talking about. They are in the business of winning championships. I don't care how Devin's +/- is effected by being on the floor during blowouts or how his numbers are skewed because he's usually the one called upon when everyone else has gone into a s .
I'm talking playoffs. And looking back at last season, Devin came up huge. If you can't admit that by looking at the numbers I have compiled, you are just trying to hold on to the myth that has been clearly debunked.
I agree. That's why I said it was good for the team when Devin got hurt because it forced Pop to make a decision.
Agreed.If Pop is just going to yank Barry and never let him get into the game because he makes 1 TO or something...then he just needs to go ahead and go with Devin win or lose so the team can find a rhythym...short hooking Barry and giving Devin half the time to be out there hasn't been good for this team all season long...
Yep.He just needs to pick his horse and ride it when it comes to these two.
True. I just want the Spurs to win. I don't care if it's Devin, Barry, GRob, Beno or whoever. Find a player who isn't going to back down and who is willing to step up to the challenge that faces them.I personally could give a how good Devin looks in an embarassing loss. I am not a Devin Brown fan...I am a Spursfan.
Now I can let this thread die if Whottt and any others who have conspired to spread this myth can admit that during the playoffs, it isn't true that if Devin plays it means the Spurs will suffer.
If this can be agreed upon, the myth can die a peaceful death.
I don't think Devin is the cause of the suffering, never said it...he's just not the cure IMO. At least...he's not the cure for us being out of rythym on offense...that's my point. S'what I am saying...
If our problem is energy or a 2 or 3 is going off on us...I think Devin can definitely do something there...but when our problem is turnovers and Duncan, Manu and Parker being stuck in neutral...I just don't think he helps that...they need to find themselves when that happens not havw someone come off the bench trying to be an All Star...it may sound funny...but I didn't like it when Malik used to do that either and I am a big Malik fan.
Put it this way...if Devin busts out for 35 points tomorrow in a win...I'll be the happiest guy on the board.
So are you backing off of your following quotes?
You (along with others) have said that when Devin plays, the Spurs play worse as a team and pointed to last year against the Lakers as proof. You don't have to admit you were wrong, perhaps admit to being misinformed.
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