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December Manu is Role Player Manu. April Manu is Boss Manu.
Bump this thread in April.
Were you thinking Kawhi's man zone?Pause...No .
December Manu is Role Player Manu. April Manu is Boss Manu.
Bump this thread in April.
When a player is saying, like Manu did in training camp, that he might retire at the season, it's most of the time an alarming sign.
'It is what it is.' He's clearly vital to the team's success. His passing alone, when not to spectators, is on a pretty peerless level. Manu is near the end of his career, as is Tim, and I'm really enjoying seeing him play.
lol CoM tryin to defend this posse...
Well, I'll take RAPM over all the idiots/trolls here: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2013.html
I don't think he will finish top 5 (there is probably some noise) or that he's been better than Timmy obviously, but advanced statistics no matter what is still>>>>idiots in this thread and his RAPM alone (including the previous seasons) coupled with his great numbers across the board last season (including near-career numbers in some categories), his play in the Olympics where he was outstanding and just his continued production in general at age 30+ that has continued to be elite make a lot of posts itt look incredibly ignorant.
It's amazing how someone like Manu can have haters on Spurs board of all places. Manu is still great. The players you think are good probably suck.
Last edited by Mouth is Bleeding; 12-15-2012 at 02:30 AM.
Manu really hurts the Spurs, he is sooo washed up. While you all and moan about it waaaaa waaaa whyyyyyyyyy I found some quick proof: http://www.82games.com/1213/1213SAS.HTM
fun fact (and even though there is some noise it's still the >>>>>noise in this thread) :
Manu Ginobili was .616 on two pointers last season which was fifth in the league. A career high. Add to that the more well known 3pt% and TS% highs.
He was 5th overall in winning percentage and landed on a 24.1 PER. All in all I'm confident he'll once again get a lot closer to production along those lines than any of the nonsense spewed in this tread.
Yup
I honestly think he's just lacking confidence or second guessing himself right now. He'll be back tho...
OVER
Mfkn co-signed. Ya'll might have missed him in the olympics, dude was ballin'...
I don't think Manu is utilized as the leading role on offense.
There will be times where Manu shows signs of his age. 5 games in 7 with most of them on the road will be one of those times where it really shows. If it means role player output so be it.
Fans need to understand the spurs hierarchy would be ok with this if it means pro-longing their careers and keeping the big three healthy for the plays-offs. I dont see this kind of thinking changing as long as the team coninues to win, others step up and the youngsters keep developing.
It does not need Manu to take the same FGs as Tony or Tim to show that Pop still holds the hope that Manu would bail us out like before. Despite his age, Manu's understanding of the game, nifty moves and his court vision, let alone his fighting spirit, are all unrivaled by the young guys. But if you still want to use him the same way like when he was young, that would benefit neither Manu nor the team.
It's hard to put into words. For example, you can't just expect Manu to suddenly play gingerly as that's just not Manu. That's why I keep using Kidd as an example. You can see Kidd's usage rate is decreasing, and his pure statistical contribution is also decreasing. But in some sense, his contribution to the team success is still the same.
He used to do it all, and one can easily see that those Mavs, Suns and Nets teams are typical Jkidd's teams. Now he lets young guys do those things that young guys can also do well. Nobody would say that NY Knicks is Kidd's team. But for those special things that the young players don't know how to do yet are crucial to a win-or-loss, he is still doing that.
As has been said, there are times when his age shows, but he has shown a few glimpses of his old self, sadly we won't see the best of him again.
I believe he's become more of a role player. when healthy for a prolonged period of time, he can obviously take over in a way role players can't. I think he'll still have some of that left in him for the playoffs, but I'm hoping nando can still start to fill the void.
"Few" is an understatement. He's shown glimpses during maybe 2 or 3 games this season (out of 25 so far).
Seeing him go 3-6 from the free throw line (including missing 2 in a row down the stretch against Utah) really was surprising more than anything. The inconsistency of his free throw shooting in general has been troubling.
December. Non-Issue
I love how Mouth Is Bleeding completely schooled the idiots criticizing Manu in this thread, and nobody said a word about it.
Nobody said a word about it because he didn't school anybody. All I saw was "RAH RAH RAPM SAYS THIS AND LAST SEASON HE HAD THESE GREAT NUMBERS"
He implied that because Manu had spectacular per minute advanced stats last season, he was still capable of producing similar numbers this season. There's no indication that this assumption will hold up, especially given his age. It's a crapshoot at this point in his career.
As for RAPM, there's absolutely no indication that RAPM is the single best advanced stat one can use to properly encapsulate overall contribution to team success. PER, EWA, simple offensive - defensive rating differentials, and other stats tell a different story. An astute basketball aficionado looks at a combination of advanced stats to paint a picture.
O/U on Mouth is Bleeding being one of Drz's alts? They have the exact same posting style
The links he provided are for this season brosef.
We both have good taste in movies, but I prefer my avatars to be less of a male sex symbol.O/U on Mouth is Bleeding being one of Drz's alts? They have the exact same posting style
I wasn't referring to any of the links he posted, brosephine.
fun fact (and even though there is some noise it's still the >>>>>noise in this thread) :
Manu Ginobili was .616 on two pointers last season which was fifth in the league. A career high. Add to that the more well known 3pt% and TS% highs.
He was 5th overall in winning percentage and landed on a 24.1 PER. All in all I'm confident he'll once again get a lot closer to production along those lines than any of the nonsense spewed in this tread.
I did see that, but I thought there was no way you were saying his arguments were invalidated by him quoting one 2012 piece amongst his 2013 information. Guess I overestimated you, girl.
You thought right. I never once said "his arguments are invalidated because he quoted 2012 stats amongst 2013 information."
I said:
1) His 2012 stats are arguably irrelevant given Ginobili's age
and
2) His over-reliance on RAPM is arguably unwarranted
Not surprised to see you attack a strawman, to be honest. I've come to expect mediocre-quality posts from you over the year(s).
If you reread your original reply, I'm sure you can figure out why I replied the way I did. A hint, in case you need one.... you focused on a tiny piece of his message that had no bearing on his overall message.
Cheers to you for making my evening that much more entertaining.
If you reread your original reply, I'm sure you can figure out why I replied the way I did. A hint, in case you need one.... you focused on a tiny piece of his message that had no bearing on his overall message.
Cheers to you for making my evening that much more entertaining.
As for the bolded part.....
Message 1: He implied that because Manu had spectacular per minute advanced stats last season, he was still capable of producing similar numbers this season. There's no indication that this assumption will hold up, especially given his age. It's a crapshoot at this point in his career.
Summary 1: 1) His 2012 stats are arguably irrelevant given Ginobili's age
Message 2: As for RAPM, there's absolutely no indication that RAPM is the single best advanced stat one can use to properly encapsulate overall contribution to team success. PER, EWA, simple offensive - defensive rating differentials, and other stats tell a different story. An astute basketball aficionado looks at a combination of advanced stats to paint a picture.
Summary 2: 2) His over-reliance on RAPM is arguably unwarranted
I'm not normally one to embarrass another poster, but there's something about your breathtaking arrogance that strikes a chord with me. If you can't properly read and comprehend messages 1 and 2 and understand why summaries 1 and 2, respectively, do - in fact - summarize the two messages in my original post, then you're an idiot, and anybody with 9th grade level-comprehension will be able to see that.
If you want an elaboration of the point I made in message 2 (and summary 2) -
His PER (18.0) is the lowest since his rookie season. His TS% (55.8) is the lowest since his sop re season. His offensive/defensive rating differential (+7) is the lowest of his career.
His WS/48 (.155) is the lowest since his rookie season.1. I can't quote every stat, and win shares is my favorite catch-all. Let me know if you think there's a better one.
2. Completely agree with your facts. I could be wrong, but you seem to be implying that his efficiency has improved since he's come back to San Antonio, and if that's what you're implying, I disagree with that. His efficiency here seems in line with his career average.
3. I don't think he's had a "horrible" career, that was too strong of a word. He's obviously been a more than capable player. But I do think he is wildly overrated, especially on this board. Kind of an Allen Iverson lite.
Edit: Uh oh, Cagney picked your side... probably a sign for you to rethink things!
Edit2: Since sarcasm doesn't translate well on the internet, that first edit was a joke. Mostly.
PER, TS%, offensive/defensive rating differential, and WS/48 are examples of the "other stats" I referenced in message 2. I wanted to explicitly point this out because you seem to have problems comprehending simple english.
I wouldn't go as far as to say your question was fair, but that's just me. Using two extremes is a terrible idea more often than not. I'd say no comment on the current Manu, who is
1) still clearly suffering somewhat from the back injury, and now has to deal with a bruised thigh to boot
2) using the patented Horry coasting method, which is even more logical considering Duncan is playing like it's '05, Parker is lighting it up, and both Neal and Tiago are providing consistent contributions
3) a team player who realizes when to take over, which clearly isn't needed on a team that can regularly put up well over 100 points, and has put up over 120 a few times with 2 of the best 6 players out for the past month, even with playing a tighter schedule than any other team so far.
If Manu gets completely healthy at some point this season AND decides to take over scoring-wising for a month and subsequently makes it clear he can't put points on the board like he used to, then maybe I'd lean towards roleplayer who has All-Star games every 6 games or so. But I just don't see that happening, and I doubt he even starts throwing up 15 shots a game until the playoffs anyways, so we'll have to wait a long time to know for sure.
EDIT: After reading the rest of this thread, I'd like to add that most likely Manu will lean towards being a roleplayer more than an All-Star for most of this season, due to the aforementioned cir stances. Scoring might be too heavily weighted in the OP though, because even if Manu is completely healthy for the 2nd half of the season, I still don't see him doing too much until the playoffs start. The only way he'd impose his will is if Tim started playing like crap out of nowhere, and the only player scoring over 15 was TP. Tony would probably go nuts like back in 09 when he was throwing up 30+ points every night, but Manu would still take significantly more control. Then again, it could be a team effort, Idk.
P.S. I'm really damn tired, so I apologize in advance if my post is nonsensical. It's not Blair tweets-level bad, but I know I rambled on and repeated myself somewhat.
Last edited by Manufan909; 12-17-2012 at 03:00 AM.
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