Lakers: Kobe is the best SG in the West, and arguably, the most clutch player in the league

[ElNono]

You just mad cuz you were wrong about det Kobe.

kobes so good it hurts him

Wrong about what? One of the few in here that was right bout dem Lakers even before the season started...

[Latarian Milton]

if irving makes a successful transformation from PG into a SG he'll be the best SG in the future. at this point of time though im still gonna pick kobe as the better one over harden. beard nig has the potential to be as good as anyone but he still has a lot to prove, and anything unfortunate can happen to him as long as he plays in houston. e.g. tmac was the 2 time scoring champ preceding the move to H but crashed into dust only a few years later, and you know what caused the shuttle challenger disaster?

[Asif Ali Zardari]

Great posts by Jamstone.

They have similar numbers and even if we pretend like they are defensive equals, which player is a proven playoff legend? It should be an easy choice.

[Mao Zedong]

You need to get into the playoffs to use the "proven playoff legend" stat card.

[Rummpd]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/76...-espn-magazine

Kobe Bryant NOT clutch, NOT a leader and EASILY BY FAR the most over-rated superstar in NBA history no matter where you rank him on the all time top 25 list. Jordan said it correctly Kobe is one of the top ten shooting guards of all time, but nothing more than that.

[Josepatches_]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...in-crunch-time

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/76...-espn-magazine

Kobe Bryant NOT clutch, NOT a leader and EASILY BY FAR the most over-rated superstar in NBA history no matter where you rank him on the all time top 25 list. Jordan said it correctly Kobe is one of the top ten shooting guards of all time, but nothing more than that.

/Thread

[djohn2oo8]

now? kobe is still the best shooting guard in the league. He plays more minutes, and carries more responsibility then wade and harden. Kobe has to get every one involved and find his shot as well as guard the best player. Wade is robin, and harden does what ever he wants out there.

1. Kirby's team is ing STACKED. Are you telling me even though he has a HOF PG, the best center in the NBA, that he has to carry them?
2. We saw what happened when Kobe actually had to carry responsibility (2 first round exits and missed the playoffs)
3. Harden is the only reliable scorer on the Rockets
4. Harden has this team in playoff position despite McHale's ty coaching and a supporting cast.

[djohn2oo8]

People have been Kobe is declining for the past couple of seasons. He's still putting up elite numbers. The only legit regression is defense, and you could argue that at least part of that is more apathy or disinterest than anything. The struggles of the Lakers as a team gives Kobe critics reason to argue he's fallen off. But while you can question his leadership or his ability to build team chemistry with teammates, you can't really question his level of play. It's still near the top of the league. If he's declining, it's not that noticeable.

In the three head-to-head match-ups between Kobe and Harden this season:

Kobe: 30.3 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.7 APG, 3.0 SPG, 43.7 FG%, 25.0 3P%, 73.7 FT%
Harden: 22.0 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 7.3 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 FG%, .267 3P%, 83.3 FT%

I realize that the Rockets won all three games. But it's not like Harden was destroying Kobe. If anything, the head-to-head match-up between the two make a stronger argument for Kobe. Like I said, it's still a debate as to who's better.

And Kobe may average a higher PPG, but he also has attempted 215 more shots than Harden has, and 144 more attempts than Westbrook.

[resistanze]

Dominant 4th from the 3rd best SG:

He needs to REALLY work on his facial expressions, tbh.

[Cry Havoc]

How many teams has Harden destroyed with his at ude?

[stretch]

How many teams has Harden destroyed with his at ude?

Yet somehow with all this "destruction" Kobe has done, he was one of, or the main factor in 5 championship winning teams.

lol @ spurfans incredible desire to dismiss Kobe

its every bit as re ed as lakerfans desire to dismiss Timmy

[The Batman]

Yet somehow with all this "destruction" Kobe has done, he was one of, or the main factor in 5 championship winning teams.

lol @ spurfans incredible desire to dismiss Kobe

its every bit as re ed as lakerfans desire to dismiss Timmy

dumbass. Shaq, Gasol and Bynum were the main factors in those teams. When Kobe the main factor he was a lucky 3 from getting swept by the Pistons.

[Clipper Nation]

dumbass. Shaq, Gasol and Bynum were the main factors in those teams. When Kobe the main factor he was a lucky 3 from getting swept by the Pistons.

Not to mention missing the playoffs in his prime and then getting owned twice by the D'Antoni Suns in the first round

[lefty20]

Kobe's clutch factor is a far bigger hoax than Manti's GF fiasco, tbh...

[The Batman]

Not to mention missing the playoffs in his prime and then getting owned twice by the D'Antoni Suns in the first round

1 MVP
Punked by Raja Bell
Blown out by 39 in game 6(the largest margin in a championship clinching game)

[ambchang]

So once again, we have Kobe fans ignoring stats and evidence, and try to use emoticons as some sort of rebuttal, or using the age old "Harden has won squat" "argument", totally missing the point that teams win, not individual. But even if you want to take a look into team accomplishments, Houston currently has a better record than the Lakers, and Dwight + Nash + Pau + MWP >>>>> Lin + Osik. This point isn't even arguable.

Then when we look into actual numbers:

Harden bests Kobe in WS: http://bkref.com/tiny/l5b4L
In PER: http://bkref.com/tiny/bGOH8
In TS%: http://bkref.com/tiny/eyUf4
In Offensive Rating: http://bkref.com/tiny/vTbtc
Offensive Win Share: http://bkref.com/tiny/Hgxmd
Defensive Win Share: http://bkref.com/tiny/wg0ez
Win Share per 48: http://bkref.com/tiny/tZ5oN

The only thing Kobe has over Harden THIS SEASON is
Defensive Rating: http://bkref.com/tiny/XHJoC

And yet, the only counterargument I got so far is

[JamStone]

Why are advanced stats the only measure of comparison, especially when in most of those stats, the difference between the two is statistically negligible? Why ignore other stats? Kobe scores more points and gets more rebounds in fewer minutes played. He also has a higher FG%. But again, even those stats are extremely close for the two players. The two guys are statistically putting up extremely similar numbers. The difference between the two is a hair difference, if at all. And if you look at the three head-to-head match-ups, you could easily argue Kobe outplayed Harden. So why is the only counterargument emoticons? Do you just choose to ignore the actual counterarguments?

Could Harden already be better than Kobe at this point based on this season? It's arguable. But it's also arguable that Kobe is still better. And the arguments aren't just based on smiley faces.

[Arcadian]

I don't respect shooting guards, tbh. They have the easiest job in basketball: catch the ball and shoot. That's a SG's job. Even if they take terrible shots - something Kobe has done expertly throughout his career - they can always justify it by the mere fact that they are shooting guards. The word shooting is in the name. It's basically a built-in excuse to be a chucker.

So yeah, Kobe might be the best shooting guard in the NBA...but that's not saying much. Give me a dominant center, PF, SF, or even PG over a chucking SG any day.

*Granted, Jordan is the single exception - but even there, I would take a top-5 all-time center over Jordan. It's contrary to popular opinion, yes. But popular opinion.

[trypldubl]

Kobe has got to be on PED's or something.

[ambchang]

Why are advanced stats the only measure of comparison, especially when in most of those stats, the difference between the two is statistically negligible? Why ignore other stats? Kobe scores more points and gets more rebounds in fewer minutes played. He also has a higher FG%. But again, even those stats are extremely close for the two players. The two guys are statistically putting up extremely similar numbers. The difference between the two is a hair difference, if at all. And if you look at the three head-to-head match-ups, you could easily argue Kobe outplayed Harden. So why is the only counterargument emoticons? Do you just choose to ignore the actual counterarguments?

Could Harden already be better than Kobe at this point based on this season? It's arguable. But it's also arguable that Kobe is still better. And the arguments aren't just based on smiley faces.

I used advanced stats as a better look in the impact of a player. To me, ultimately, is how much he helps his team win. Things like points, rebounds and assists are great, but they sometimes fail to capture that information.

As for counter arguments, the original premise is that Kobe is the best in the west. Your numbers support neither, so it's not even an argument in the sense that you are saying its a tie. There have been no arguments that said Kobe is better this season.

[JamStone]

Advanced stats rarely tell the entire story either and also fail to truly capture how much a player helps his team win.

I wasn't arguing Kobe is definitely better than Harden. I'm arguing that it's debatable. And since you don't think it is, I'm also challenging the fact that it's clearly Harden.

As for your argument in your earlier post that "Dwight + Nash + Pau + MWP >>>>> Lin + Osik" doesn't it matter that Dwight, Nash, Pau, and MWP have missed over a combined 50 games this season (it gets closer to 120 missed games if you also consider two other rotation players in Steve Blake and Jordan Hill have missed a ton of games) compared to 0 missed games by Lin and Asik? Parsons has only missed 1 game this season. Injuries happen to every team and it's not the only reason the Lakers have struggled, but for you to completely ignore the difference in missed games and simply say Kobe's supporting cast is much better is a bit disingenuous.

Also, you ignored the head-to-head match-up between Kobe and Harden. I'll post it again. 3 games between the Lakers and Rockets this season:

Kobe: 30.3 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.7 APG, 3.0 SPG, 43.7 FG, 25.0 3P, 73.7 FT
Harden 22.0 PPG, 6.0 RPG, 7.3 APG, 0.7 SPG, 37.5 FG, 26.7 3P, 83.3 FT

I don't know how to calculate advanced stats, so maybe you can do that for us. Seeing how their overall numbers, standard or advanced, are largely very similar, isn't the head-to-head match-up a valid argument?

Also, as for the Rockets having a better record, it's a 3 game difference in the loss column. And if you look deeper into each team's schedule, neither team is beating the elite teams in the league. Both Houston and the Lakers are mediocre to below average teams. Aside from the Knicks and like the Lakers 1 win against OKC, the Rockets are like 0-10 against the top teams in the league. I don't think team success favors either player really. And even though you won't accept the fact that the Lakers really have faced much more injury issues to their a lot of their key players, I do think that makes a difference in team record. You don't have to agree with that. But I think it's more than reasonable to assume they'd have a better record if Nash, Dwight, and Pau only missed 1 game all season long the way Lin, Asik, and Parsons have only missed 1 game this season.

[ambchang]

If advanced stats rarely tell the entire story, then plain statistics tells even less. So I am not sure why you would entirely reject the use of advanced statistics when you entire argument is rested on plain statistics. What advanced statistics can do over plain statistics is that it factors in important components like pace, and how a player helps a team win.

I am not exactly sure where I came up with the idea that I am saying it is not arguable that Harden > Kobe. In fact, I agree with you that it's arguable, and that's why I did not categorize your posts in this thread as arguments, because you didn't give a clear indication which side you are on. In fact, I read yours as saying Kobe is NOT the best SG in the West because the original premise is that Kobe IS, and you are saying that it's arguable. I am in the same boat as you in saying that this is a debatable issue, but I am siding with Harden being the better player because the advanced statistics says so.

WIth regards to Dwight + Nash + Pau + MWP >>>>> Lin + Osik, it is not arguable, even after factoring in injuries. Lin and Osik each has 3.5 win shares (total 7). Dwight Howard, despite all the injuries, is at 4.8, Metta World Peace another 3.6, just those two added together is worth 8.4 win shares.Nash is at 2.9, and Pau 2.5.

As for H2H, they are probably not a great indication of a player's worth to the team. You are talking about one single type of game against one compe ion. Again, the objective of a basketball player is to help a team win, if Harden and Kobe play against each other every game all season, then the H2H could potentially work in terms of comparisons, but they don't. The Lakers could have the defensive task of doing nothing but stop Harden and let the other players get theirs, while the Rockets could potentially let Kobe get his and try to stop the other guys. Which brings us to the downfall of looking at only the plain statistics of two players for comparisons, and not the advanced stats.

Finally, I am not sure how you would somehow jump to conclusions based on my arguments. You somehow said that I am saying Harden > Kobe is indisputable (never said it), and now is saying that I said injuries have injuries have no bearing on the struggles of the Lakers. I never said it, and you are somehow saying that I did. Do I believe if Dwight, Pau and Nash has been healthy, the Lakers would have a better record? Absolutely! But despite their injuries, these players STILL have better WS than Lin and Osik. Even when you factor in Parsons WS numbers, it still doesn't make up the 3 additional losses the Lakers have been suffering.