NBA: Higher All-time rank as of now: LeBron or Duncan?

[TDfan2007]

Lebron is far better on offense and Duncan is far better on defense, tbh..

I agree to a certain extent. I should have placed less emphasis on ability and more on actuality. Lebron can guard the 1-4 effectively, plays the passing lanes very well, and is just a ridiculous physical obstacle for offensive players to overcome. His physical attributes are heightened by the fact that he plays very disciplined defense. Only issue with LeBron is the inconsistency of the defensive effort, but he's gotten much better with that over the years.

As for offense, Duncan was unguardable from about 1998-2007, and regularly dropped 20-30 on the likes of KG, Shaq, and the Wallace Bros, and constant double teams. LeBron may have a slight edge, but he's not FAR better.

[Splits]

I still get a half gallon from time to time (they got it at the .99 cent store for the love of Christ)

shopping at dollar stores

living off the gvmt

SNAP paying

[TDMVPDPOY]

the problem with lebron, why is held to a different standard comparison to jordan, as compared to kobe to jordan

[Splits]

Well let's break it down:

Defense:

Both guys are otherworldly talents on the defensive end. LeBron is more versatile, while Timmy was arguably more impactful, due to his ability to guard the pick and roll and defend the rim at elite levels.

Edge: Wash


Offense:

It may sound strange to say, but both guys are underrated scorers thanks in part to their well-rounded games and unselfishness. In his prime, Duncan could have averaged close to 30 ppg, but played unselfishly within a team-oriented system. Same could be said of LeBron. Both of these guys are/were unguardable one-on-one, but had the wherewithal to know when to force the action and when to defer to teammates. Just compare Timmy's game 6 performance in the 2003 Finals to LeBron's 2012 Finals game 5 performance. They're eerily similar in the way that both guys dominated in Swiss army knife fashion.

Duncan will go down as one of the 3 greatest post players of all time (only McHale and Hakeem have arguments over him), while LeBron is like a lab-born love child of Jordan and Magic. Again, not much separating either guy here.

Edge: Wash...again.


Intangibles:

Both guys stepped up their games when it mattered most (playoffs), and both have produced consistently in the clutch. With that being said, Duncan gets the nod here due to his more consistent Finals performances and legendary leadership ability.

Edge: Duncan


Overall Edge: Duncan by a hair.


Objectively, Duncan has the edge in rings and Finals MVPs, while LeBron has the edge in regular season MVPs. Neither player has a DPOY, but both should have had one by now.

I'd hear out arguments for LeBron over Timmy, because it's definitely debatable, but imo Timmy gets the nod.

Solid

[RsxPiimp]

the problem with lebron, why is held to a different standard comparison to jordan, as compared to kobe to jordan

Because he didn't rape or snitched.

[james evans]

Shaq and Kobe would have never 3peated in the 80s imo

i agree and neither would have jordan or pippen

[FkLA]

MVP is right up there with alpha rings on the importance scale tbh.

You can throw an anomaly like Nash out there but aside from him every truly great player has multiple MVPs.

[HarlemHeat37]

Every true great should have a season where they won both Regular Season MVP and Finals MVP, tbh..

If you couldn't do it, you really shouldn't be considered as a top-tier legend IMO..

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think duncan has the opportunity to add more accomplishments to his CV, only problem i see here is the nba going away from him and promoting other players to win awards, whether its dpoy, mvp, all nba, all defensive team, ASG....u know what i mean....

what bothers me with the goat list, why do clowns make it seem like you cant seperate magic n bird, or have anyone between both of them ...is the gap between bird and magic to the next guy that large? 2 overrated hacks just like wilt, russell...

[scanry]

IMO Lebron passed Duncan last year. I don't think rings matter anymore tbh.

I've never seen a smarter player than Magic on the bb court, but Lebron comes very close and they're both so unselfish.

[Killakobe81]

it all depends on this year.

If Lebron 3peats no way can duncan contend with that.

but if lebron fails, he'd have to win at least 2 more to contend with Duncan.

and before someone says "its not about championships" once you get to the level of Lebron vs. Duncan, yes, yes it is about championships

Yep.

[Killakobe81]

Every true great should have a season where they won both Regular Season MVP and Finals MVP, tbh..

If you couldn't do it, you really shouldn't be considered as a top-tier legend IMO..

Silly, tbh.
Okay every truly great legend should lead a repeat ...if you couldn't you really shouldn't be considered a top tier legend IMHO ...

MJ? Yep two 3peats
Shaq one 3 peat
Kobe? Yep.
Magic? Yep.
Isiah? Yep.
Lebron? Yep

Duncan. Nope.

You see what I did there?
Relying on a bull media award that awards Nash the same number of MVP's as Duncan ...

[RsxPiimp]

MVP is right up there with alpha rings on the importance scale tbh.

You can throw an anomaly like Nash out there but aside from him every truly great player has multiple MVPs.

Malone winning it over MJ TWICE is another case. Iverson over Shaq, Rose over Lebron.

It's a bull award that has lost its true meaning.

[Fabbs]

Duncan still most def better career wise.
His allowing Popovich to choke away les is the only reason it's a question.
If Spurs finish out Game 6 are we even having this conversation? No.

[HarlemHeat37]

Silly, tbh.
Okay every truly great legend should lead a repeat ...if you couldn't you really shouldn't be considered a top tier legend IMHO ...

MJ? Yep two 3peats
Shaq one 3 peat
Kobe? Yep.
Magic? Yep.
Isiah? Yep.
Lebron? Yep

Duncan. Nope.

You see what I did there?
Relying on a bull media award that awards Nash the same number of MVP's as Duncan ...

That's a multi-season team accomplishment..

MVP + Finals MVP in the same season is the pinnacle of dominance in the NBA..it signifies that for an entire year of NBA basketball, you dominated both the regular season AND the playoffs..Dad Killer, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq all did it, tbh..

[ambchang]

At this point, Duncan has a hands up due to longevity. Lebron most definitely has the ability to catch up, but he still has to prove it.

The problem is Duncan was severely underrated during his prime, statistically inadequate "analysts" back in the day was looking at raw numbers of Duncan and compared them directly to Shaq, and concluded that Shaq was the better of the two, yet totally ignored factors such as pace, style of play, and defensive impact. Duncan, in his prime, was actually quite close in terms of dominance to Shaq when all things are factored in, and Shaq was about as dominant as they come in his prime.

Lebron, for all the hype about his dominance, was perceived as more dominant because:
1) He doesn't have anyone even remotely close to him in terms of dominance. Durant, for as good as he is, is like a healthy FT shooting T-Mac. Extremely good player? Yes. Top-10 of all time, no way. Duncan had Shaq, Shaq had Duncan. Lebron doesn't have anyone.
2) There has been a long stretch of time where we haven't really witnessed a top 10 player of all time in his prime. When Shaq and Duncan was in their primes, Jordan was only done with his dominance for 2 years. Shaq and Duncan were done with their dominance around 2005, and even though Lebron reached that level of dominance around 2008 or so, he didn't have the support in terms of team dominance since 2012. That's seven years. Russell led to Oscar and Wilt. Then it went to Kareem and West. Then Bird and Magic with Dr. J and Moses filling in the gap, then Jordan sprinkled with a little bit of Hakeem, then Duncan and Shaq. Since the mid 1970s, there really wasn't much of a gap for transcendental talent, now 7 years after Duncan and Shaq were dominating the league, Lebron came in and people goes unrealistically high on him.

[Killakobe81]

That's a multi-season team accomplishment..

MVP + Finals MVP in the same season is the pinnacle of dominance in the NBA..it signifies that for an entire year of NBA basketball, you dominated both the regular season AND the playoffs..Dad Killer, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq all did it, tbh..

Doesnt matter. It's an actually accomplishment Regular season MVP (Finals is usually on point) has become a media award ever since they got tired of giving it to MJ ,,,even Kobe's was somewhat debatable. Now they are rightfully giving it to Lebron but that is because the advanced stat community loves him. Despiye that they still gave it to rose which i did not mind as much as most on here ... but still tells me the award is bull .


Just the same if we look at trends all the truly great has repeated team accomplishment or not.

Hakeem, Magic, Isiah, Lebron, Kobe Shaq

Duncan and Bird are in that OTHER category ...

[Killakobe81]

At this point, Duncan has a hands up due to longevity. Lebron most definitely has the ability to catch up, but he still has to prove it.

The problem is Duncan was severely underrated during his prime, statistically inadequate "analysts" back in the day was looking at raw numbers of Duncan and compared them directly to Shaq, and concluded that Shaq was the better of the two, yet totally ignored factors such as pace, style of play, and defensive impact. Duncan, in his prime, was actually quite close in terms of dominance to Shaq when all things are factored in, and Shaq was about as dominant as they come in his prime.

Lebron, for all the hype about his dominance, was perceived as more dominant because:
1) He doesn't have anyone even remotely close to him in terms of dominance. Durant, for as good as he is, is like a healthy FT shooting T-Mac. Extremely good player? Yes. Top-10 of all time, no way. Duncan had Shaq, Shaq had Duncan. Lebron doesn't have anyone.
2) There has been a long stretch of time where we haven't really witnessed a top 10 player of all time in his prime. When Shaq and Duncan was in their primes, Jordan was only done with his dominance for 2 years. Shaq and Duncan were done with their dominance around 2005, and even though Lebron reached that level of dominance around 2008 or so, he didn't have the support in terms of team dominance since 2012. That's seven years. Russell led to Oscar and Wilt. Then it went to Kareem and West. Then Bird and Magic with Dr. J and Moses filling in the gap, then Jordan sprinkled with a little bit of Hakeem, then Duncan and Shaq. Since the mid 1970s, there really wasn't much of a gap for transcendental talent, now 7 years after Duncan and Shaq were dominating the league, Lebron came in and people goes unrealistically high on him.

I agree he is overrated a bit ... especially on defense. However can't you make the same case for MJ? Once Magic, bird Isiah got old ...who was close to MJ? Malone? Robinson? Ewing?
Your point makes sense but you have to apply the same rules to MJ. And as great as Tim is, you are overrating him a bit here as well ... GOAT PF? sure. Again no repeat. Consistently great but all jokes aside a truly dominate player should be able to repeat once me thinks ...

[ambchang]

I agree he is overrated a bit ... especially on defense. However can't you make the same case for MJ? Once Magic, bird Isiah got old ...who was close to MJ? Malone? Robinson? Ewing?
Your point makes sense but you have to apply the same rules to MJ. And as great as Tim is, you are overrating him a bit here as well ... GOAT PF? sure. Again no repeat. Consistently great but all jokes aside a truly dominate player should be able to repeat once me thinks ...

You know my stance on team accomplishments when evaluating an individual, so this point probably won't go anywhere between us, but repeats have more to do with era, teammates, compe ion, and most importantly luck. Thing such as health of teammates, matchups, officials and peaking time all factors in a championship. Repeats just doubles the requirement of that luck.

As for MJ. I think he's a product of both how good he was as well as is compe ion. Sure Barkley, Malone Hakeem and Robinson would have been viewed very differently if they had won a ring during MJs reign and could potentially enter top 10 or 15 all time discussions. But MJ was just that good that he killed them all. That said, if MJ was pitted against prime magic or bird, he would have been viewed differently

For the record, I think MJ is one of the best. Not THE best.

[Thread]

You know my stance on team accomplishments when evaluating an individual.

Yeah, Duncan pooped his pants and you had to give 5 back. Don't blame Stern:::the Jew wished he had two so you could keep yours.

[ambchang]

Yeah, Duncan pooped his pants and you had to give 5 back. Don't blame Stern:::the Jew wished he had two so you could keep yours.

Duncan played great throughout the entire series. Him missing a layup at the end of the game vs earlier on still counts as 0 points. To say he choked and ignoring his stellar games is just idiotic.

[Koolaid_Man]

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 2 gold medals
Duncan: 1 Dookie medal