Hall of Fame

[bobbyjoe]

Barkley's peak years were from 88-93. He played in Houston from 96-00, after having several knee surgeries and several almost retirements. He was a declining player. Players don't peak in their mid 30's. To give an example, Barkley from 88-93 had yrs where he shot 56, 58, 59, and 60% from the field and scored 25, 26, 26, and 28 ppg.

His last yrs in Phoenix before the trade to Houston his ppg had dipped to the lower 20's and his FG% had just plummeted to 48.6%. He was without a doubt well past his prime. Hakeem and Charles in their primes would have been just ridiculous. Plus, Barkley's first year in Houston they did get to the WCF, which is as far as Big Dave ever took the spurs as the #1 option and you seem to not give him any grief for that despite having 2 all star forwards besides him in 95, a team good enough to win 62 games.

Hakeem and Charles were both 36 years old and in severe decline mode when Pippen was traded to Houston and Pippen had had several health issues as well and was not close to the player he was when he led the Bulls to 55 wins without Mike at his peak in the mid 90's. It's just a joke to evaluate a guy at the tail end of his career like you are inexplicably trying to do. Players peak generally in their mid to late 20's not in their mid 30's.

Drexler scored 19.2 ppg and shot 42% from the field the year before being traded to Houston. In his peak he consistently scored between 25-27 ppg and shot close to 50%. He was a s of his former self by the time he got to Houston.

Big Dog Robinson is 32. Is he in his prime right now? Van Exel's 33 right now. Jason Kidd is 32. Most in the league think these 3 are in the noticeably declining stages of their careers. Not everyone can have the longevity of a Karl Malone.

You say Hakeem didn't win until his 10th year in the NBA? I guess you weren't watching but in his second season he led the Rockets past one of the truly great teams in league history, the Showtime Lakers in 5 games to the NBA Finals. They didn't win the Finals, but they had to face Bird's best Celtics team in 1986, a team that only lost 2 games all postseason, both to Houston.

You need a reality check if you think Kenny Smith or Mario Elie or Sam Cassell were "great" guards. Clyde, yes. Even at 32, he was still a very good player. The other 3 were role players.

As for Rodman, you take the good with the bad with him. No one complained about his tough interior defense or his ability to grab 20-25 rebounds a game and play mental games with his opponents. Sure, he wasn't a scorer, but he still won 5 les and was a very valuable component in each run so that right there tells me when surrounded by the right guys, he can be a key piece in winning, plus he got you so many 2nd chance opportunities on offense.

It'd be nice if he guarded Hakeem? If you have the MVP, the Defensive Player of the Year (not sure that's the year Dave won it, but he was either #1, 2 or 3 for that category almost every year) why do you need Rodman to guard Hakeem? I'll admit that would have been interesting because Rodman did have a way of frustrating most guys mentally but when you have a 7 footer who's best move is a fallaway jumper it doesn't really make much sense to put a shorter guy on him when you have a 7'2" ridiculously athletic Center.

Robinson's problem that series was going for every fake Hakeem threw at him and he has no one but himself to blame for that. You seem to make every excuse in the book for Robinson and try to grasp at straws to downplay the achievements of Shaq and Hakeem, etc by giving it all to role players like Horry and Fisher.

What did horry do the 1 year he didn't play with hakeem, shaq, or duncan, the year he was with phoenix?

What did Fisher do this year when he left LA? Did we ever hear from K. Smith, the "great" guard after Hakeem left? How bout that stud Otis Thorpe, did he just fall off the face of the earth after not being paired with hakeem? Did we ever hear anything from Elie besides the years he was with Hakeem or the twin towers?

Superstars make role players, not the other way around. If Horry hadn't had the good fortune of playing with the 5 all-time greats he did, he'd clearly have 0 rings.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't know if its "several notches" but DRob's scoring went down 3pts (21.1 to 18.1) and his blocks went down half a block(3.0 to 2.5) from his regular season totals to his playoff averages. I think the supporting casts did have something to do with it come playoff time. SA had talent but others usually had more and when the Spurs did have more talent (91 against GS) they would get rattled very easily and could not recover. In 95 though...there was no excuse. The Spurs should have and could have won that series. Hakeem was awesome and was not going to be stopped but the Spurs supporting cast could have done more to their Rocket counterparts. The supporting cast of the Spurs lacked, IMO, the scrappyness and grittiness of the Rockets. The Spurs, I think, believed their own hype and I blame that on Bob Hill. He tried to hard to control Rodman and defense was not his forte....Houston was an outstanding defensive team and out worked the Spurs.

Robinson's FG% also drops in the playoffs from 52 to 48%. His FT% drops from 74 to 71%, but the main stats really are FG% and PPG.

Conversely, Hakeem's playoff stats elevate from 51 to 53%. His ppg goes up from 21.8 to 25.9 ppg. He also has slight increases in BPG, RPG, and his APG go up nearly 1 full assist per game. That's called taking your game to the next level when it counts.

O'Neal's playoff stats slightly decline but are still absurd. His PPG in the playoffs is 26.8 ppg, his FG% is 56.2%, down from reg season but still significantly higher than DRob's. He does slightly increase his RPG and APG.

Lookign back though, you are probably right. His game goes down a notch, not several, in the postseason, but still postseason is obviously what any pro sports league is all about when it's all said and done. You don't remember the Warren Moon's and Karl Malone's and Peyton Manning's, the great regular season performers who just couldn't get it done in the postseason. I believe Robinson would be in that group if not for Timmah.

You can clearly see that Robinson is on par with Hakeem and shaq in the reg season statistically (his #'s and hakeem's are unbelievably close in the reg season) but in the playoffs there's a distinct and very significant difference in performance levels.

[whottt]

So let me get this straight...Barkley, Pippen and Drexler were all old and washed up at the age of 32...

Yet Dennis Rodman who was the same age when he played with Robinson was the greatest player in NBA history?

And BTW...Barkley scored 19ppg and pulled down 13 rebounds per game that first year with Hakeem...I want you to find another player that ever did anything remotely close to that for Drob. I'll give you the only guy that came close...Terry mings and it wasn't that close.

Here's the deal...Kenny Smith was better than Avery Johnson...Clyde Drexler was better than Vinny Del Negro... , Mario Elie was better than Vinny Del Negro...we replaced Vinny with Mario and won a freaking le.

Yeah it makes sense to put a Defensive player of the year on Hakeem...unless you want him to carry your offense as well...in which case foul troubles can hurt you worse than anything...which I guess is why the Rockets double teamed Robinson, rather than putting DPOY Hakeem on him. Robinson being one of the best in NBA history at getting to the FT line.

That's also why you never saw Tim Duncan guarding Shaq very often or vice versa.

And BTW...Rodman was a 2 time defensive player of the year...the 2 years before David won it.


And his lack of scoring did not make it easier for David like Hakeem being surrounded with the most prolific 3 point shooting team in history did...not to mention clutch...Horry and Elie.

David had a PG with back up talent that had the most limited J of any PG I have ever seen...his 2 guard would have been a back up on just about any team in the NBA he damn sure wasn't Clyde Drexler...I don't care if you look at his best year VS Drexler's worst. So David had basically one other offensive threat...Elliott...the guy who choked the 2 game winning FT's in game 1...of a series lost 4 games to 2, with Rodman, the second best player on the team, missing one game.

And that's the only time Hakeem ever got over on Drob. Drob owned him in their career head to head matchups...in the regular season...when double teams are seldom used.

The degree to which a player gets double teamed in the playoffs is entirely dependent upon his teamates performance.


No...the role players make all the difference in the world on le teams....

You could say...replace Horry with Charles Barkley or Karl Malone and still not win a le.

I mean were you paying attention in 03? Shaq outscored Duncan....

[TDMVPDPOY]

I mean were you paying attention in 03? Shaq outscored Duncan....

Yeh and duncan won his 2nd ring n finals mvp.

[whottt]

Yeh and duncan won his 2nd ring n finals mvp.

Yeah remember when Duncan came off the bench against Dallas and hit all those threes? Remmber when he did it in game 6 of the finals?

Remember the 19-2 run that gave us the lead, and the win, in which Duncan did not score a single point?

I remember Duncan's D on Shaq in those playoffs as well...it was outstanding.


It's too bad Duncan has sucked in 5 of his 8 years in the NBA...think of all those other les we could have won if only Duncan had played better.

[ambchang]

Robinson's FG% also drops in the playoffs from 52 to 48%. His FT% drops from 74 to 71%, but the main stats really are FG% and PPG.

Conversely, Hakeem's playoff stats elevate from 51 to 53%. His ppg goes up from 21.8 to 25.9 ppg. He also has slight increases in BPG, RPG, and his APG go up nearly 1 full assist per game. That's called taking your game to the next level when it counts.

O'Neal's playoff stats slightly decline but are still absurd. His PPG in the playoffs is 26.8 ppg, his FG% is 56.2%, down from reg season but still significantly higher than DRob's. He does slightly increase his RPG and APG.

Lookign back though, you are probably right. His game goes down a notch, not several, in the postseason, but still postseason is obviously what any pro sports league is all about when it's all said and done. You don't remember the Warren Moon's and Karl Malone's and Peyton Manning's, the great regular season performers who just couldn't get it done in the postseason. I believe Robinson would be in that group if not for Timmah.

You can clearly see that Robinson is on par with Hakeem and shaq in the reg season statistically (his #'s and hakeem's are unbelievably close in the reg season) but in the playoffs there's a distinct and very significant difference in performance levels.

This of course, all comes with averages.
Robinson played MANY playoff games during the years of his decline, when the Spurs actually have a good team with Tim Duncan. While during his early years, the Spurs were kicked out of the playoffs relatively early due to lack of a good supporting cast.
To illustrate:
From 90-97, Robinson played 563 regular season games, and 53 playoff games (I just took the Spurs playoffs history, and assumed Robinson played every game except the 92 playoffs), after Duncan arrived (from 98 to 03), Robinson played 424 regular season games and 77 playoff games.
His total for the career is 987 regular season games, and 130 playoff games, with the split of
57% of regular season games before his back injury, and 43% after, and
41% of playoff games before his back injuryl and 59% after.
Clearly, Robinson's effectiveness decreased after the back injury, and the substantial drop in average numbers in his playoff statistics could be attributed to them being skewed towards the later part of his career.

[Extra Stout]

Wrong...check it again. You just clicked on a different stat.

My guess is you clicked on offensive rating...Steve Kerr being a guy that did nothing but shoot 3 pointers...and incidentally just happened to be the best NBA history at it...would naturally score high on that stat.

That is not, however, the stat that I lead you too.

Do try and get it together.

The stat to which you linked (PWP) lists Steve Kerr 29th and Hakeem 31st.

Consider yourself slapped.

[xcoriate]

Wow Extra Stout you were a tad late coming to the party on that one.

[Extra Stout]

Taking into account the pre-injury, pre-Duncan years, here are Dave's statistics:

Regular season: 25.6 ppg, 53% fg%, 11.7 rbg
Playoffs: 24.0 ppg, 48% fg%, 11.7 rbg

The noticeable dropoff was in his offensive performance. David Robinson did not have a sound fundamental offensive game; he depended primarily on his explosive athleticism to blow by other big men. The best move he ever developed was his semi-reliable herky-jerky jumper which he released on the way down.

In the regular season, with limited preparation and practice time, teams can't pick out all the weaknesses in a superstar, or in a team, so teams can rack up gaudy win totals with their strengths, even if their holes will eventually be their undoing in the playoffs. So it was with David Robinson, and so it was with those Spurs.

When David Robinson absolutely, positively had to get a basket in crunch time of a close playoff game, he had nothing on which to rely except his athleticism, and when teams compensated to get the ball out of his hands, he wasn't the kind of passer who would get his teammates shots in rhythm.

And those Spurs, even the 1995 team with its awesome frontcourt, had fatal flaws that made them easy to unravel in the postseason. Any team starting as lousy and one-dimensional a basketball player as Vinny Del Negro has no business in the NBA Finals. He would have been marginal as a backup on an 8th seed.

Those Spurs were analogous like the current Dallas Mavericks, who despite winning 58 games, didn't scare anyone in the playoffs.

Here's a question: who had the worse supporting cast, David Robinson in any pre-injury season, or Tim Duncan in 2001-02?

[SWC Bonfire]

Here's a question: who had the worse supporting cast, David Robinson in any pre-injury season, or Tim Duncan in 2001-02?

DRob had less to work with, simply because TD had DRob (barring injury).

The early-90's DRob teams would have been waxed even harder by the 2001-2002 Lakers IMO.

[ambchang]

Taking into account the pre-injury, pre-Duncan years, here are Dave's statistics:

Regular season: 25.6 ppg, 53% fg%, 11.7 rbg
Playoffs: 24.0 ppg, 48% fg%, 11.7 rbg

The noticeable dropoff was in his offensive performance. David Robinson did not have a sound fundamental offensive game; he depended primarily on his explosive athleticism to blow by other big men. The best move he ever developed was his semi-reliable herky-jerky jumper which he released on the way down.

In the regular season, with limited preparation and practice time, teams can't pick out all the weaknesses in a superstar, or in a team, so teams can rack up gaudy win totals with their strengths, even if their holes will eventually be their undoing in the playoffs. So it was with David Robinson, and so it was with those Spurs.

When David Robinson absolutely, positively had to get a basket in crunch time of a close playoff game, he had nothing on which to rely except his athleticism, and when teams compensated to get the ball out of his hands, he wasn't the kind of passer who would get his teammates shots in rhythm.

And those Spurs, even the 1995 team with its awesome frontcourt, had fatal flaws that made them easy to unravel in the postseason. Any team starting as lousy and one-dimensional a basketball player as Vinny Del Negro has no business in the NBA Finals. He would have been marginal as a backup on an 8th seed.

Those Spurs were analogous like the current Dallas Mavericks, who despite winning 58 games, didn't scare anyone in the playoffs.

Here's a question: who had the worse supporting cast, David Robinson in any pre-injury season, or Tim Duncan in 2001-02?

All true, Robinson has been blessed, or cursed, with amazing atheleticism, and he has never had a good enough coach to develop his game (what the was Larry Brown doing at the beginning).
But a FG% and FT% drop in the playoffs is not that uncommon, in fact, a FG% drop in the playoffs is expected.
I would be included to say that the 01-02 Duncan support cast is inferior to the 95 team. Sean Elliott and Rodman, at least when he falls in line, complements an awesome frontcourt. The problem with all the Robinson team is the lack of a point guard to distribute the basketball. I think Duncan being able to win a championship in 03 with a weak cast really shows how amazing he really is.

[whottt]

David had a great supporting cast in 90-01....Unfortunately...they were also responsible for the no look pass in game 7 of the 90 WCSF.

Take a look at David's numbers from those first two post seasons and they are drastically different than they were when he had no talent around him.

As for David's numbrers dropping in the playoffs...Admittedly they did drop...

But if you look...Tim Duncan's playoff numbers are lower than David's regular season numbers in some categories as well.

Matter of fact...Tim Duncan is now a sub 50% FG shooter for his postseason career.

By the way..

This is what Duncan shot this post past post season, as he won the finals MVP:
PPG: 23
FG% 46%

In the NBA finals:
PPG: 20
FG%: 419%


Against Seattle:
PPG: 25
FG%: 46%


Against Denver:
PPG: 22
FG%: 47%

In 04 VS LA:
PPG: 20
FG%: 47%

Amazingly...Duncan's postseason numbers..after the retirement of Drob...are almost Drob like. I wonder why?

As for the talent...

Let me direct you guys back a to blast from the past...

Box Score

SAN ANTONIO (85)
                      fg    ft    rb
               min   m-a   m-a   o-t  a pf   tp
Duncan          20   2-7   1-2   3-8  1  5    5
Elliott         32   3-5   3-4   1-5  0  4   10
Robinson        36   3-7  9-10   0-9  5  3   15
Elie            28   3-7   0-0   2-3  3  2    6
Johnson         33  7-13   0-0   0-1  8  3   14
J Kersey         9   1-2   2-2   1-1  1  0    4
Perdue          21   1-1   1-2   2-6  0  2    3
S Kerr          12   2-5   0-0   1-4  1  0    5
Jackson         27  6-14   1-1   0-5  1  0   19
Rose            15   0-5   2-2   1-2  1  5    2
King             4   1-2   0-0   0-1  1  1    2
Daniels          3   0-0   0-0   0-0  0  0    0
_______________________________________________
TOTALS         240 29-68 19-23 11-45 22 25   85
_______________________________________________

Percentages: FG-.426, FT-.826. 3-Point Goals:
8-18, .444 (Elliott 1-3, Elie 0-1, S Kerr 1-3,
Jackson 6-11). Team rebounds: 9. Blocked shots:
12 (Robinson 7, Duncan 2, Johnson, J Kersey,
King). Turnovers: 18 (Robinson 7, Duncan 3,
Jackson 3, Daniels, Elie, Johnson, S Kerr).
Steals: 7 (Robinson 2, Elie, J Kersey, Jackson,
Johnson, S Kerr).

PORTLAND (63)
                      fg    ft    rb
               min   m-a   m-a   o-t  a pf   tp
B Grant         40   0-5   5-8  2-13  0  3    5
Wallace         28  7-11  8-10   2-5  1  6   22
Sabonis         30   2-9   2-2   1-7  1  4    6
Rider           36  3-11   3-3   3-5  1  3   10
Stoudamire      29  1-12   0-0   1-3  3  1    2
Augmon          15   1-4   2-2   1-1  2  3    4
Anthony         19   2-8   0-0   1-2  2  1    5
Oneal            6   1-3   0-0   0-1  0  1    2
Williams        13   1-6   0-2   1-1  3  0    2
Jackson         21   1-6   2-2   1-2  0  2    5
Cato             3   0-2   0-0   1-1  0  1    0
G Grant        DNP - coach's decision
_______________________________________________
TOTALS         240 19-77 22-29 14-41 13 25   63
_______________________________________________

Percentages: FG-.247, FT-.759. 3-Point Goals:
3-14, .214 (Rider 1-2, Stoudamire 0-1, Anthony
1-5, Williams 0-3, Jackson 1-3). Team rebounds:
13. Blocked shots: 2 (Sabonis, Oneal). Turnovers:
15 (B Grant 4, Wallace 3, Jackson 2, Rider 2,
Anthony, Oneal, Sabonis, Stoudamire). Steals: 6
(Sabonis 2, Anthony, B Grant, Wallace, Williams).
____________________________________________
San Antonio        22   18   24   21  -   85
Portland           26   12    8   17  -   63
____________________________________________
Technical fouls: San Antonio 3 (Perdue, 2:14 1st;
Illegal Defense 2, 11:48 4th, 8:11 4th). 
Portland 1 (Wallace, 11:03 4th). Flagrant fouls:
None.  A: 20,732. T: 2:29. Officials: Mike
Mathis, Ronnie Nunn, Bernie Fryer.

That's a boxscore from the 99 playoffs, game 3 VS Portland, in Portland...

Now if you think David could have pulled off a 5 point performance back on his teams...and still won the game by 20 points?

You are on crack.

[whottt]

I applaud Hakeem for leading the Rockets to the 86 Finals...

I also applaud Ralph Sampson for hitting the ing game winner that put them in the finals, over Kareem, with Olajuwon ejected from the ing game.

[spursfaninla]

I remember hakeem averaging something like 10-15 pts more than david did when he lead his team against the spurs in the 1995 wc finals. Sure, the Spurs tried to play him single coverage, but for the most part so did the Rockets. And when the rockets were able to crowd David, it was his fault that he didn't pass it out for more open jumpers or mid-range shots himself.

It wasn't until later in his career that David developed range. As it was said earlier, his offense was predicated on his athleticism, and when that went we saw his effectiveness drop significantly.

David was a great athelete, but not the peak performer that Hakeem was, and not the clutch player that Duncan was.

[ambchang]

I remember hakeem averaging something like 10-15 pts more than david did when he lead his team against the spurs in the 1995 wc finals. Sure, the Spurs tried to play him single coverage, but for the most part so did the Rockets. And when the rockets were able to crowd David, it was his fault that he didn't pass it out for more open jumpers or mid-range shots himself.

It wasn't until later in his career that David developed range. As it was said earlier, his offense was predicated on his athleticism, and when that went we saw his effectiveness drop significantly.

David was a great athelete, but not the peak performer that Hakeem was, and not the clutch player that Duncan was.

Robinson passed, but the team clanked shot after shot in 95. You can't simply blame the whole series on Robinson, and credit Hakeem for the Rockets win.
Hakeem was incredible in that series, and he proved it again in the next series by torching Orlando with a Shaq and Grant double team for 33 ppg, but Robinson did everything that was humanly possible. What else could he have done with Rodman hanging around the basket waiting for a rebound, leaving Robert Horry wide open for 3 pters? What could he have done to see Del Negro brick jumper after jumper? What was he supposed to do with no point guard?
Hakeem was great in 94 and 95, but Robinson was great from 90 to 96.

[spursfaninla]

I don't mind saying that David was a better regular season player for more years, but it matters in the playoffs.

And again, you cant' blame Robert Horry or the Worm's play for Hakeem's point differential over David in that series.

Hakeem had one of the best playoff series of ALL TIME.

It was one of the top 5 UPSETS OF ALL TIME (one of a few 6 seeds taking out a 1 seed...)

[ShoogarBear]

As for the talent...

Let me direct you guys back a to blast from the past...

Box Score

SAN ANTONIO (85)
                      fg    ft    rb
               min   m-a   m-a   o-t  a pf   tp
Duncan          20   2-7   1-2   3-8  1  5    5
Elliott         32   3-5   3-4   1-5  0  4   10
Robinson        36   3-7  9-10   0-9  5  3   15
Elie            28   3-7   0-0   2-3  3  2    6
Johnson         33  7-13   0-0   0-1  8  3   14
J Kersey         9   1-2   2-2   1-1  1  0    4
Perdue          21   1-1   1-2   2-6  0  2    3
S Kerr          12   2-5   0-0   1-4  1  0    5
Jackson         27  6-14   1-1   0-5  1  0   19
Rose            15   0-5   2-2   1-2  1  5    2
King             4   1-2   0-0   0-1  1  1    2
Daniels          3   0-0   0-0   0-0  0  0    0

Now if you think David could have pulled off a 5 point performance back on his teams...and still won the game by 20 points?

Fortunately, AJ was around once again to pull everyone's fat out of the fire.

( that whottt happened to pick this boxscore.)

[whottt]

Uh...Shoogar...

Drob had 15 points, 9 rebounds, 7 blocks, 5 assists, and 2 steals...

Jaren Jackson's 6-11 3 point shooting was also a big help...

But you miss the point...the point is that, that team was good enough for Duncan to have a 5 point performance on the road and still win...None of Drob's teams were ever good enough to where that could have happened to him and they would have still won.

And he never tanked like that anyway...then again, he couldn't.

And Rasheed isn't exactly Hakeem if you know what I mean.

[whottt]

I don't mind saying that David was a better regular season player for more years, but it matters in the playoffs.

And again, you cant' blame Robert Horry or the Worm's play for Hakeem's point differential over David in that series.

Hakeem had one of the best playoff series of ALL TIME.

It was one of the top 5 UPSETS OF ALL TIME (one of a few 6 seeds taking out a 1 seed...)

Um...yes you can. Horry drew a defender WAY OUT there and Rodman didn't.

Hakeem had one of the best playoff series of all time because he didn't have to worry about defense like Drob did. They could just save Hakeem for scoring. Like the Spurs do with Duncan every playoff series.


And it wasn't one of the biggest upsets of all time...the Rockets were the defending champions....and their team was improved over the previous year with the addition of Drexler.

[bobbyjoe]

Robinson passed, but the team clanked shot after shot in 95. You can't simply blame the whole series on Robinson, and credit Hakeem for the Rockets win.
Hakeem was incredible in that series, and he proved it again in the next series by torching Orlando with a Shaq and Grant double team for 33 ppg, but Robinson did everything that was humanly possible. What else could he have done with Rodman hanging around the basket waiting for a rebound, leaving Robert Horry wide open for 3 pters? What could he have done to see Del Negro brick jumper after jumper? What was he supposed to do with no point guard?
Hakeem was great in 94 and 95, but Robinson was great from 90 to 96.

This is just a colossal joke.

Why is every failure endured in the Robinson era everyone's fault BUT Robinson? It's the coach's fault that robinson was too lazy to ever develop go-to moves that would help him in the playoff in crunch time? Do you think MJ became so great because of awesome coaching or because of desire and skill?

Robinson was ABUSED that series. It's the PG's fault or Rodman's fault that he was twisted around like a pretzel on every single hakeem up fake, allowing hakeem uncontested layup after layup, allowing him to shoot 56% for the series to Robinson's subpar 44%? It's the PG's fault Dave blocked 2.0 shots per game that series to Hakeem's 4.2 BPG? It's the PG's fault Robinson bricked 2 huge free throws at the end of Game 6 to get SA within 2 with a minute left? He got taken to the woodshed, plain and simple.

Avery Johnson outscoring Smith that series 18 ppg to 6 ppg is what prevented it from being a sweep. David's inability to contain Hakeem was far and away the #1 reason for the loss. Not the only reason, but far and away #1. It's tough to win when the best player from the other team is just going off every night. Just like it was tough when Bryant was going off in the 2001 WCF before Bowen came to town.

If you think that Dave was great for 6 years of his career and hakeem only 2, you are really delusional. Look at the stats. Look at the playoff ones in particular where Hakeem just totally outclassed David. David never ever came remotely close to reaching the level of hakeem 93-95 or shaq 00-02 or Duncan 03.

WHy is it so hard to accept that Dave isnt in the tier of Duncan, Hakeem, MJ, Shaq, Bird, Kareem, etc? Those guys all managed to win les as the #1 options. Hakeem and DUncan did it with relatively weak supporting casts in 1994 and 2003. Those aforementioned greats don't see their playoff FG% drop a full FIVE percent in the postseason, when the real games are played. The true super elites have go to moves to rely on in crunch time. Dave never had one. Oh wait, it's the PG or Coach's fault. Of course.

[bobbyjoe]

Uh...Shoogar...

Drob had 15 points, 9 rebounds, 7 blocks, 5 assists, and 2 steals...

Jaren Jackson's 6-11 3 point shooting was also a big help...

But you miss the point...the point is that, that team was good enough for Duncan to have a 5 point performance on the road and still win...None of Drob's teams were ever good enough to where that could have happened to him and they would have still won.

And he never tanked like that anyway...then again, he couldn't.

And Rasheed isn't exactly Hakeem if you know what I mean.

Let me ask you point blank to rank these 4 players in the order you'd pick em:

Hakeem
Shaq
DRob
TD

Please tell me you don't have DRob #1 on that list.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't mind saying that David was a better regular season player for more years, but it matters in the playoffs.

And again, you cant' blame Robert Horry or the Worm's play for Hakeem's point differential over David in that series.

Hakeem had one of the best playoff series of ALL TIME.

It was one of the top 5 UPSETS OF ALL TIME (one of a few 6 seeds taking out a 1 seed...)

That's not true at all. Look at the actual stats, not the post of a biased fan. He says Hakeem was only great in 94 and 95 and conveniently ignores 93 and 96, years where his stats were basically the exact same as 94-95. He also leaves out Hakeem's stats in his early years where was displaying crazy RPG and BPG stats and putting up the exact same #'s DRob did during this stretch from 90-96. Hakeem did have 2 years of relatively soft production in 91 and 92 but other than that and the years where he was way past his prime, his reg season stats meet or exceed DRob's and his playoff stats are much better than DRob's.

[samikeyp]

I know I am a Spurs fan so in bobbyjoes mind I am automatically biased...but here are the stats for Robinson and Olajuwon from the 92-93 season through the 95-96 season. Everyone can judge as they wish.


Robinson: 26.4ppg, 11.3rpg, 3.6apg, 3.2bpg
Olajuwon: 26.9ppg, 11.6rpg, 3.5apg and 3.4bpg

Hakeem did have better stats but IMO not dominating over David. These are regular season stats only.

[samikeyp]

playoff stats for the same years...again from a biased Spurs fan.

Robinson: 23ppg, 11.2rpg, 3.3apg, 2.8bpg
Olajuwon: 27.5ppg, 11.1rpg, 4.3apg, 3.9bpg

[FromWayDowntown]

Let me ask you point blank to rank these 4 players in the order you'd pick em:

Hakeem
Shaq
DRob
TD

Please tell me you don't have DRob #1 on that list.

I don't think there's any way, other than blind homerism or a complete disregard for what goes on after mid-April in the NBA, that you could put David Robinson anywhere other than last on that list. There's no shame in being the 4th guy listed on a list of no brainer, first-ballot Hall of Famers. David is one of those guys, but he's not the best of that bunch.

You can point to IBM awards (btw -- if the absence of serviceable teammates explains David's playoff struggles, doesn't that same problem also explain David's regular season statistical greatness; I mean, isn't he, in a sense, the Kelly Leak of the mid-90's NBA?). You can concoct all types of ratios, you can disregard post-season win/loss evidence but point to regular season win/loss evidence (that makes absolutely no sense to me, but if you're bent on making a case, so be it), and you can devise all sorts of retrospective explanations. But the proof is in the pudding. When push came to shove, Hakeem, Shaq, and Timmy have all gotten it done and gotten it done consistently when it mattered most. There are absolutely no empirical means of denying that truth.

I watched the Spurs very closely throughout David's career, often embarrassed (1996 WCSF v. Utah, for example; 1991 WCFR v. Golden State), occasionally proud (1990 WCSF v. Portland; 1993 WCFR v. Portland; 1995 WCSF v. LA), and often heartbroken. I have watched almost every game of Tim Duncan's career. I have absolutely no doubt that Tim Duncan is a better player than David Robinson. None.

You can point to sheer numbers all you want and say, well, Timmy's per game scoring averages aren't as good, but you also can't ignore the fact that Tim has never played for a team that averaged 100 points per game or averaged more than 80 shots per game.

I also don't think that you can completely ignore votes for league honors. I don't think those results are always gospel truth about players, but they tend to balance out over time. Tim plays in an era of great forwards (particularly PF) but he is a no-brainer First Team All-NBA player every year. David played in an era of great centers (himself, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning) and while there wasn't any doubt that he was an All-NBA guy (which is why I'd always argue that Dave was greater than Ewing, for example), he was rarely a no-brainer for the First Team. That, to me at least, is a dramatic difference.