http://www.basketballreference.com/l...leadershof.htm
This is a pretty cool site. You have to read about how they do the Hall of Fame Monitor, but Tim Duncan is 1st on the list of active players, 3rd on the list of player who have not yet made it to the HOF(behind MJ and Malone), and 11th all time. Not too bad!
http://www.basketballreference.com/ <--I have been spending a lot of time there. My cousin told me about this site. I like it alot.
Yes, interesting that he passed Drob so easily.
I think that should say alot for those who wonder who was the better player.
Further, he passed Shaq on HOF monitor, supposedly a top 5 center of all time.
I love that site, it gives an interesting perspective on players.
The site gives 1 point for each point of the NBA career, and 2.5 points for each point of Career Efficiency...
yet it only gives 3.5 points for each NBA championship!?
I mean...I know championships are really more dependent upon the full effort of a TEAM, and they are only given to one team a season and all that hooplah...
But still...by that accord, scoring a point is 1/3.5ths as difficult as winning a ring. Seems a little skewed, don't you think?
, Duncan's 10.5 points are basically negated because he is a Forward/Center.
Regardless, it seems like a good system, especially since it shows that no Hall of Famers are left out by that formula. Still seems a lil fishy to me, though.
Last edited by Dex; 08-06-2005 at 03:23 PM.
Um...it says a lot for a formula that gives you 75 points for an MVP award, XP for all NBA first team, and a - 20 handicap for being a C VS a -15 handicap for being a F.
And Bob Cousy ranks ahead of Shaq, Drob and Hakeem Olajuwon...Further, he passed Shaq on HOF monitor, supposedly a top 5 center of all time.
Who are you going to take? If you are ready to swear by that formula than be my guest to have Cousy...just be prepared to lose a lot of games.
I love that site, it gives an interesting perspective on players.
This one is better:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/
Note the hyphen.
By the way...for those of you ready to swear by the HOF monitor at Basketball reference....
Here's an APBRmetric ranking of players who contributed the most to their teams wins, per game, in every game they played in their careers...it's basically the equivalant of win shares for basketball players...
According to this cutting edge statistical analysis...
David Robinson is the best player to play in NBA history, in terms of helping his teams win...at least since the ABA NBA merger...
Those of you listening to my arguments over the years for how under-rated David was, and how much sucess he had with a very limited supporting cast(especially at the guard spots)shouldn't be surprised this finding, ...5 IBM awards...not popularity contests.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=desc&limit=50
Well, but when the site ranks Brad Miller and Sidney Moncrief above Bird and Jordan, you know something is wrong.
I love David, he is my favourite player, but I wouldn't even rank him as the best center, probably 5 or 6 in my book.
Wow, awesome site!!!
Look at number 1 and 2 in that list!!!
Good point. I didnt even see that til I read your post.
Brad Miller over MJ????? I dont think so!
BTW my list of best centers ever is:
1. Russell
2. Wilt
3. Jabbar
4. DRob
5. Hakkem
... Steve Kerr did more to help his teams win than Hakeem Olajuwon.
That "player win %" looks ok, but there are some SERIOUS flaws in a system that puts Sabonis above Shaq, Barkley, Bird and MJ.
This system of evaluation that is SO much better than the HOF monitor also put Brad Miller and Dennis Rodman over Kareem.
I think HOF monitor consistently places the best players near the top, whereas this system is VERY spotty.
Sorry, you lose.
Wrong...check it again. You just clicked on a different stat.
My guess is you clicked on offensive rating...Steve Kerr being a guy that did nothing but shoot 3 pointers...and incidentally just happened to be the best NBA history at it...would naturally score high on that stat.
That is not, however, the stat that I lead you too.
Do try and get it together.
According to the link you provided, Steve Kerr is ahead of the Dream.
Shaq has to be 4... and Drob and the dream have to be pulled down.
Not when you take into account that Shaq, Barkley, Bird and MJ played with Rodman, Parish, Hakeem, Pippen, Kobe and McHale.
Take MJ off the Bulls and they were still a 55 win team.
Unles you are able to grasp the simple concept that teams win championships....not individuals...then this is probably all going to be wasted on you.
This system of evaluation that is SO much better than the HOF monitor also put Brad Miller and Dennis Rodman over Kareem.
Did you or did you not read the part where I said, since the NBA merger, or more specifically, since 1978? Did you think Kareem only played 12 years?
The portion of Kareem's career this measures he was surrounded by 2-3 other HOF'ers every year...one of which definitely was more responsible for the teams success than he was.
I think the HOF monitor rewards popularity...which is usually a good indicator of who will make it into the HOF as well...I think HOF monitor consistently places the best players near the top, whereas this system is VERY spotty.
But that's got nothing to do with who was actually contributing more to wins.
Let's talk about it again in 5 years...when you have a better grasp on the game.Sorry, you lose.
According to the link you provided, Steve Kerr is ahead of the Dream.
LMAO...my bad.
Is it that hard to figure out why Kerr ranks higher though?
Hakeem played with a lot of great players and had some really ty records.
Really Hakeem's teams only won at high rate for like a 5 year period of his career....
Look at the other years of his career...the years where he was at 500%, the year where he failed to make the playoffs...etc. It was rare that a Hakeem team won 50 games...and when it did he usually had Clyde Drexler, Barkley, Pippen, etc...eating into his contributions....and when his team set a 3 point record etc.
Actually, after looking how low Garnett ranks on that list I am more convinced than ever that it is accurate and a good way to measure players.
And BTW...Duncan ranks second on it...Magic Johnson is third....
who but whott knew that Ed Pinckney was the 50th best player in nba history
Not if you include things other than backing people down in the paint with your earthmover-sized butt, like defense and rebounding. Shaq is a superb low post scorer, but so was Antoine Carr. The difference is that Shaq is 7'0" 350 and played for LA, and Carr was 6'9" 260 and played for SA and Utah.
2001 NBA 45-37 5th, Midwest Division
2000 NBA 34-48 6th, Midwest Division
1999 NBA 31-19 3rd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1998 NBA 41-41 4th, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1997 NBA 57-25 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Finals
1996 NBA 48-34 3rd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1995 NBA 47-35 3rd, Midwest Division Won NBA Finals
1994 NBA 58-24 1st, Midwest Division Won NBA Finals
1993 NBA 55-27 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1992 NBA 42-40 3rd, Midwest Division
1991 NBA 52-30 3rd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1990 NBA 41-41 5th, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1989 NBA 45-37 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1988 NBA 46-36 4th, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1987 NBA 42-40 3rd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1986 NBA 51-31 1st, Midwest Division Lost NBA Finals
1985 NBA 48-34 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
This is a year by year list of the records of Hakeem's teams...
In 18 years 5 times his teams won 50+ games...Look at the guys he played with...Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Clyde Drexler...even Robert Horry. I am sure I left out some others that were good players too...like Cassell and Thorpe.
This is just from David's pre Duncan years:
NBA 59-23 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1996 NBA 59-23 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1995 NBA 62-20 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Finals
1994 NBA 55-27 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1993 NBA 49-33 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
1992 NBA 47-35 2nd, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1991 NBA 55-27 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf 1st Rd
1990 NBA 56-26 1st, Midwest Division Lost West Conf Semis
That's 5 times in 7 years he won 50 games...and one of those years he didn't was because he missed the last 3 weeks of the season with torn thumb ligaments(and they lost like a mofo once he went out)..never finished lower than second in the division and finished with a better record than Hakeem's teams in 5 out of those 7 years...and he finished second to Hakeem in those years.
Now look at who David's teamates were during those years...
Rodman
mings
Elliott
Dale Ellis?
Chuck Person?
Good players sure...but not exactly Pippen, Drexler, Barkley etc.... , in most cases not even Robert Horry.
Um Ice...I never claimed this was the definitive system of who was the greatest players of all time...
It's just my response to someone saying the HOF monitor is....
Believe me...if I thought it was the definitive stat for who was the greatest player of all time...and it's saying David is...
You'd have heard about it the first time I saw it...about 2 years ago.
It's not the definitive stat...but neither is the damn HOF monitor.
By the way...for a guy that was such a post season god...
Hakeem sure did get his ing ass kicked out in the first round of the playoffs a lot...except for the year he didn't even make the playoffs.
You do realize Cousy won 6 NBA championships in his career, right?
He was the most dominant point guard of his era, and how he would hypothetically perform in another era is irrelevant. What is relevant is he averaged 18 ppg, 7 apg, and 5 rpg throughout his career and was named First Team All-NBA 10 times.
Bob Cousy sucked goat ass.
If he was playing in todays era he'd be backing up Sarunas Jackoviecieus for McCabi Tel Aviv.
I love it when guys start citing les as proof of some ...
So in your next argument you'll be arguing Bill Russell as the greatest of all time because he won 10 or 11....
But guess what...they were both on the same team....so they both can't have been the main reason responsible for those les...so therefore how much individual credit can you give them for team achievements?
Partial credit?
Full credit?
IF you give them full credit you have to explain why they didn't win every year...or how their teams still continued to make the playoffs after they were no longer there...
If you give them partial credit that opens the door for guys like John Salley to start citing their rings...
Teams win les not individuals...
Bob Cousy didn't win any championships, and if you can show me the year he is listed as the NBA champion I will acknowledge the point.....but you can't...because he didn't...the Boston Celtics did...and they kept on winning after he left...and they kept on winning after Bill Russell left.
And Michael Jordan's teams continued to make the playoffs after he left.
David's bought the second or third worst record in the NBA...
Of course Cousy didn't win a championship on his own, but 18 points per game and 7 assists per game is a pretty big help. But yeah, winning an MVP and 10 First Team All-NBA nominations "sucks goat ass."
Guess what? It doesn't matter how he'd play in this era. He played in the 1950s and 1960s, and he was awesome in that period. End of story. Who is to say any of our NBA greats of today would be good against the players of 2060? If not, who cares? They're great now, that's all that matters.
Last thing - Jordan's teams continued to win after he left? Hmmm, is that why in 1994 they couldn't get to the Conference Finals, or from 1999 to 2004, the Bulls were a complete joke?
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