Battle Blog: David vs Hakeem

[samikeyp]

I get that and I have posted them before. My point is that one playoff series, which ceds alludes to, should not be the sole basis for an entire career. My point still stands...IMO Hakeem was better but dominant over Dave for the length of his career.

[bobbyjoe]

If Hakeem was so great, why did the Rockets fail to reach the playoffs in his prime (92?)

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets fail to win 50 games 11 times in Hakeems Houston Career?

If Hakeem was so great, why did his Rockets only win the Midwest Division twice?

Robinson guarded Hakeem straight up in the WCF, but Hakeem didnt guard Robinson, he guarded Rodman until Rodman got suspended. Hakeem got to rest on defense while Robinson worked hard both ends, because he had a heavier load to carry than Hakeem.

Clyde > Elliott (Clyde was still getting 22/7/5)
Elie > Vinny Del Negro
Sam I Am/Kenny Smith > Avery (Avery was a better leader, but Houston ran inside-out and they just needed PGs to hit open shots.)
Robert Horry > Chuck Person
Rodman < Chilcutt/Brown (but Rodman was suspended for the last two games and Houston won both)

This is the homer post of all time.

Dennis Rodman was not as good as Chilcutt/Chucky Brown. That's asinine.
Avery dominated Kenny Smith in the WCF. Avery's the reason it wasn't a sweep.

And Hakeem did not guard Rodman that series. That's a blatantly false statement. He guarded DRob. DRob's game offensively was really one fold: beat his man off the dribble. Against most C's, that was good enough, not against a guy who was just as quick and athletic as he was. Rodman played in both games 5 and game 6, so now we are so desperate we are just lying or we didnt watch that series but just want to grasp at straws to avoid admitting Rob was torched by hakeem that series.

And you don't average 5.5 assists in a series as a Center without getting double teamed. It's amazing the crap some come up with to avoid facing the obvious reality that Robinson was dominated that series.

Hakeem took his teams to 3 NBA Finals. He beat Shaq, DRob, and Ewing in the playoffs largely because he dominated those guys individually. He helped get past Kareem and Showtime in 86. THese are things DRob did not do.

If not for Duncan, David Robinson would never even have MADE the NBA FInals. He had his chances and came up short.

Rob's individual game went down notches in the playoffs and hakeem's went the other direction. The stats prove that, the les do, and so diid human eyes if not covered by silver and black shades.

[bobbyjoe]

I get that and I have posted them before. My point is that one playoff series, which ceds alludes to, should not be the sole basis for an entire career. My point still stands...IMO Hakeem was better but dominant over Dave for the length of his career.

Those playoff stats you see are not from one series brother. Those are hakeem's and david's playoff #'s over their ENTIRE CAREERS. The playoff #'s from just 95 are a lot further apart than the career playoff #'s.

If DRob was a better playoff performer than hakeem over the course of his career, then your argument would have some merit. But that 95 series was a microcosm of hakeem and drob's playoff games. One's elevated in postseason, one's declined, which created an indinstinguishable performance gap between the 2.

Hakeem was quite a bit better than Robinson. Enough so that both players are clearly in different tiers when evaluated by nba experts (neutral ones).

[whottt]

And Hakeem did not guard Rodman that series. That's a blatantly false statement.

No it's not.

Drob averaged more shooting fouls per game than Hakeem had to give....

DRob's game offensively was really one fold: beat his man off the dribble. Against most C's, that was good enough,

This is very true. He had a good J too though.

not against a guy who was just as quick and athletic as he was.

Hakeem was not as quick as Drob...not even close. He was about as quick Duncan...and Duncan wasn't as fast as Drob even in Drob's last season.

And you don't average 5.5 assists in a series as a Center without getting double teamed.

You also don't average 5.5 assists per game without your teamsates hitting their shots and therefore punishing the other team when it was trying to double you.

Hakeem took his teams to 3 NBA Finals. He beat Shaq, DRob, and Ewing in the playoffs largely because he dominated those guys individually. He helped get past Kareem and Showtime in 86. THese are things DRob did not do.

Drob, Shaq and Ewings teams also never lead the NBA in 3PA made...thereby punishing the out of anyone that thought of doubling them.

If not for Duncan, David Robinson would never even have MADE the NBA FInals. He had his chances and came up short.

If not for Robert Horry Hakeem wouldn't have beaten us in game 1....

If not for Robert Horry Shaq wouldn't have 3 les...

If not for Robert Horry we wouldn't be the defending champions right now.

Rob's individual game went down notches in the playoffs and hakeem's went the other direction. The stats prove that, the les do, and so diid human eyes if not covered by silver and black shades.

The only thing on anyone eyes is Hakeem's nutsac on yours....

Hakeem didn't do until Rudy T got there and surrounded him with shooters that could hit under pressure...

That was the catalyst....AFTER they became the most prolific 3 shooting team in NBA history...they won les.

And I don't give a how good Hakeem was...if you put Avery ing Johnson on his team...AJ was not going to get any better at hitting threes.

Hakeem never changed that much in his career...true he finally stopped being lazy and cancerous for that 2 year period...but basically he was the same player he always was....in fact I'd say he was more dominant in other seasons...


And you kick your own ass every time you bring up the Celtics Finals...

Hakeem got kicked out of the game that put them in the finals...Ralph ing Sampson was the reason they won that game....he hit the winning shot.

[samikeyp]

I know from when they were posted....never once was a speaking about career playoff numbers.....I was specifically referring to Ceds implication that the one series in 95 was the end all, be all of Hakeem's career. Hakeem was quite a bit better than David in your opinion but that doesn't make it anymore so than mine does but there are many NBA experts (neutral ones) who also feel that it was pretty close and even some who think David was better. I admit that I am not neutral but I also have the mental ability to be objective when it comes to Spurs players. A quality you seem to think no Spurs fans possess and you base that solely on the fact that "they don't agree with me, therefore they must be homers" I could say the same about you. You are a Laker fan, you could be just as biased against DRob and the Spurs as some here are biased for them. I don't know that for sure because I don't know you. Because I don't know you, it would be ignorant to assume that you are biased so I am not going to make that claim. You have made several posts that could be construed as anti-Spur, anti-Spur fan and anti-Robinson. The only respectable thing to do is to give you the benefit of the doubt, which I am.

[whottt]

These comparisons between AJ and Kenny Smith are whack too....

Kenny Smith was the #6 pick in the entire draft...he had a great college career a Carolina...he was a stud in international compe ion..

He is the only guy I know of that was ever in the dunk and 3 point contest in the same all star break...when Hakeem went down with cracked skull...Kenny and Mr.Mean lead the Rockets on the longest winning streak in team history, they finished with the best record in team history...and on top of all that...he was clutch...always clutch....

When Drob got injured the Spurs lost 10 out of 15(still finished with a better record than the AJ Rockets though).

From the time he hit a game winning shot over Sabonis to capture Team USA's first Gold Medal in the World Championships in 30 something years...to the time he was doing for Hakeem...he was a threatening presence...especially when he was playing with a dominant big like Hakeem.


AJ...was undrafred...he was cut by 4 different teams...including the ing Rockets...and the only team he ever started for was the Spurs...because he wasn't good enough to do it anywhere else.

Yes he was feisty...but he was severely limited in his offensive abilities, even with a dominant bigman, all he could do was pass...that was his only skill....that's why he got cut...by both the Spurs and the Rockets, and the Sonics, and the Warriors.

And Smith and AJ are the same age....

[whottt]

What you see when you look back on the careers of Duncan...Robinson...Shaq...Hakeem...

You see Sean Elliott hitting a game winning shot with Duncan(because Elie would have kicked his ass if he'd missed)...you see him missing two game winning FT's with David.

You see Robert Horry hitting pivotal game winners for all these guys...

Do you see that with Robinson?

You see Derek Fisher and .04....

You see Jaren Jacksnon just going off on the ing Lakers...

You don't see that with Robinson...you don't see memorable moments by his teamates...and don't tell me the chances weren't there...we lost a lot of 1 and 2 point game in the Drob era...

David never had a teamate step up, never....the others all did. It was all entirely on David.

The pressure was all on David....and he did it so well in the regular season it masked how weak some of those teams were...

His starting backcourt for the glory years was a pair of oft waived journeymen.

When the playoffs started and the double teams began....and the level of compe ion increased...and teams got real familiar with each other real quick...and could concentrate on attacking the strenghts of the other teams...David teams were exposed for the weak teams they were...just like they got exposed any time he was injured.

That's the reality. Deal with it. There's a reason Hakeem took so long to get back to the finals after Samson declined....it was his team.

[Spurminator]

Robinson and Kobe... Imagine.

[bobbyjoe]

You are seriously on crack if you think Hakeem was only as quick as Duncan?

How the did he crush DRob in steals every year and have more blocks if he wasn't as quick? He was quicker than Robinson, Robinson was faster. Look at Hakeem and Robinson's steal #'s, not even close.

Hakeem's athleticism by big man standards is 2nd to no one's, DRob included. To compare his quicks to Duncan is just stupid.

Saying Hakeem was about as quick as Duncan is like saying Duncan and Shaq are the same strength wise.

[bobbyjoe]

I know from when they were posted....never once was a speaking about career playoff numbers.....I was specifically referring to Ceds implication that the one series in 95 was the end all, be all of Hakeem's career. Hakeem was quite a bit better than David in your opinion but that doesn't make it anymore so than mine does but there are many NBA experts (neutral ones) who also feel that it was pretty close and even some who think David was better. I admit that I am not neutral but I also have the mental ability to be objective when it comes to Spurs players. A quality you seem to think no Spurs fans possess and you base that solely on the fact that "they don't agree with me, therefore they must be homers" I could say the same about you. You are a Laker fan, you could be just as biased against DRob and the Spurs as some here are biased for them. I don't know that for sure because I don't know you. Because I don't know you, it would be ignorant to assume that you are biased so I am not going to make that claim. You have made several posts that could be construed as anti-Spur, anti-Spur fan and anti-Robinson. The only respectable thing to do is to give you the benefit of the doubt, which I am.

Never seen a list outside of SA fans ranking DRob over Hakeem, ever. That's seriously delusional.

Even if you completely throw out 95 like it never happened, Hakeem's career playoff stats are clearly and significantly better than Robinson's. Can you seriously disagree?

I am not biased against Robinson. He has his place in history, but it's clearly and definitely behind guys like hakeem, duncan, and o'neal.

Would a Bulls fan be biased if he thought MJ was better than Kobe? No, because that's a view most hold.

The vast majority of NBA fans, yourself included, view hakeem as a better player than robinson.

[samikeyp]

Never seen a list outside of SA fans ranking DRob over Hakeem, ever. That's seriously delusional.

So because you have never seen, it doesn't exist and I am delusional....and its delusional because you say so?

Would a Bulls fan be biased if he thought MJ was better than Kobe? No, because that's a view most hold.

So because most hold a view...means its absolute truth? Actually you proved my point...a fan of any team can be biased and can still be right.

Even if you completely throw out 95 like it never happened, Hakeem's career playoff stats are clearly and significantly better than Robinson's. Can you seriously disagree?

Never said otherwise...now you are lying.

The vast majority of NBA fans, yourself included, view hakeem as a better player than robinson.

Speculation and opinion....not fact...except the part about how I feel.

[bobbyjoe]

So is it speculation and opinion to say most nba fans don't put robinson in the tier of MJ, Wilt, and O'Neal?

Or is it simply obvious?

Didnt that last list of all-time nba centers not even have drob in the top 10 and diss his game? (not that I agree he's not top 10).

[samikeyp]

Didnt that last list of all-time nba centers not even have drob in the top 10 and diss his game? (not that I agree he's not top 10

It did...and that was the opinion of the author of the list, just like its your opinion that he is top 10.

So is it speculation and opinion to say most nba fans don't put robinson in the tier of MJ, Wilt, and O'Neal?

its speculation and opinion. for it to be fact, you would have to establish the exact number of NBA fans, figure out how many of those would comprise a majority and poll all of those fans. Just because it seems obvious to you or I, does not mean someone else may feel different. Everyone is en led to think how they would like and no one has the right to discount them for it.

[tekdragon]

I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

And don't pay too much attention to the homers. Unless you grew up in San Antonio, you'll never understand the pedestal David is place upon. It gets ridiculous sometimes (as in the "David was a better basketball player than Hakeem" arguement). Most Spurs fans don't have the ability to separate David Robinson the Once-In-A-Lifetime, Exceptional, Incredible, Truly Honorable Human Being (which he most certainly is) from David Robinson Exceptionally Gifted Athlete and Better-than-Average Basketball Player. To Spurs fans, there is no separation between his off-court excellence and his on-court performance. He's that kind of icon in the community. Of course, these are the same people who won't give Kobe the on-court credit he deserves based on his off-court transgressions.

To a certain degree, I'm one of those Spurs fans, too. But I can see that Hakeem was a superior basketball player (not person, Spurs fans). I don't know what series these folks were watching, but what I saw was my favorite player getting schooled one-on-one repeatedly. I realized then that Hakeem was the better basketball player. And that hurt like to accept. Some people don't want to deal with that hurt, and never will. To them, they truly believe that the entire world (outside of San Antonio) must be wrong.

Save your rant, whottt. I'm not going to read it.

[samikeyp]

I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

I would echo this....even though you and I don't see necessarily eye to eye bobbyjoe, you know your stuff. Welcome.

For the most part...Tek is right...I don't think all Spurs fans see big Dave with silver and black glasses...but he is highly revered here and with good reason.

[Nikos]

I'd just like to say welcome to bobbyjoe. It took you all of 35 posts to join the pantheon of highly intelligent an reasonable Laker fans that visit this board. It's nice to have you. We get so many idiot Laker fans during the season, that guys like you and the legendary adidas11 really stand out. Good posts, excellent reasoning.

And don't pay too much attention to the homers. Unless you grew up in San Antonio, you'll never understand the pedestal David is place upon. It gets ridiculous sometimes (as in the "David was a better basketball player than Hakeem" arguement). Most Spurs fans don't have the ability to separate David Robinson the Once-In-A-Lifetime, Exceptional, Incredible, Truly Honorable Human Being (which he most certainly is) from David Robinson Exceptionally Gifted Athlete and Better-than-Average Basketball Player. To Spurs fans, there is no separation between his off-court excellence and his on-court performance. He's that kind of icon in the community. Of course, these are the same people who won't give Kobe the on-court credit he deserves based on his off-court transgressions.

To a certain degree, I'm one of those Spurs fans, too. But I can see that Hakeem was a superior basketball player (not person, Spurs fans). I don't know what series these folks were watching, but what I saw was my favorite player getting schooled one-on-one repeatedly. I realized then that Hakeem was the better basketball player. And that hurt like to accept. Some people don't want to deal with that hurt, and never will. To them, they truly believe that the entire world (outside of San Antonio) must be wrong.

Save your rant, whottt. I'm not going to read it.

Mind explaining why you think Drob is inferior to Hakeem and overratted as a basketball player (not neccesarily whott's opinion, but others)? Not that I think he is better than Hakeem....

[whottt]

Chauncey Billups > Kobe Bryant

Ben Wallace > Shaq

[whottt]

Yes...welcome bobbyjoe...and as soon as you get tekdragon's tongue out of your ass(guy thinks sucking up to opposing fans and ting on his own media ted on players makes him sound knowledgable, what a rarity on these boards) feel free to try and back your argument up with something other than a Stephen A Soundbite and self asskicking contradictory statements...

That's what I love about the 1 playoff series argument...it's impossible to defend when applied from player to player...

Ohh shotblocking and steals are an indication of speed?

I guess we've figured out that Mark Eaton was the fastest C in NBA history...brilliant.

Meanwhile I leave you trying to explain how AJ was better than Kenny when in fact AJ was cut by the Rockets when they had them both...

I'll leave you tout Elliott's dominance over Horry...but then you still have to explain why the Rockets nixed a trade of Elliott for Horry...

But most of all I want you to ing explain to me how Vinny ing Del Negro even belongs on the same ing court as Clyde Drexler...much less how Vinny was an advantage for Drob.

And then I want you to take a look at all the other years Hakeem didn't win les...and see whose team performed better year in and year out, without the same payroll...


But yes...I echo Texsucks greeting to the latest and greatest member of the flat earth society, who can't differentiate between a basketball game and a boxing match. What rare knowlede...and wow...nobody ever argued that Hakeem was better than David based on the 94-95 playoffs and media perception before....how unique.

[bobbyjoe]

Nice try Whott.

Mark Eaton was 7'4". Not hard to figure out why he was a prolific shot blocker. And by the way, Eaton was never a leader in the Steals category.

When a guy who's 6'11" like Hakeem is blocking more shots than David Robinson, 7'2" and other taller guys in the league (6'11" is not an atypical height for a Center), it either means that he:

-Has superior defensive instincts (i don't believe that's the main reason)
-Has better hops (I don't think this is true either)
-Is quicker and more agile (bingo)

Hakeem had 4 seasons where he averaged over 2.0 steals per game. One year he was at 2.60. Tim Duncan has never averaged higher than 0.9 steals a game. DRob did average over 2.0 once, although like Hakeem he also posted excellent steal #'s for a Center due to his quicks (though not as many as hakeem)

Hakeem was much quicker than Tim Duncan and quicker than DRob. When you see guys like Kirilenko, DRob, Hakeem, Ben Wallace, etc among the nba season steal leaders it's because they are athletic freaks.

How else do you explain Hakeem averaging more steals per game every year in the league than DRob besides a quickness advantage? He was quicker to the ball.

And save the Eaton comment because he was a block leader, but never remotely close to a steal leader. You see the quick guys like GP, Stockton, MJ, etc atop steal leaders, not stiffs like Eaton. Mutombo's another example: Great shotblocker due to height, anticipation, and wingspan, but not quick, thust very low steal #'s.

You really must never have watched Hakeem play if you think he was no quicker than Tim. Tim's game isn't quickness, it's vastly superior fundamentals and skills. Hakeem's game was a combination of both, but he was definitely just as athletic if not moreso than DRob. I give Robinson the edge in pure speed (as in if they were racing down the court, I'd bet on DRob) but i give hakeem the edge in lateral quickness and agility, thus the superior steal and block #'s. Hops I'd probably give to DRob as well. Strength to hakeem, though DRob was more cut.

[bobbyjoe]

Whott,

It's already been established that even if you completely 100% discount the 95 WCF, Hakeem has much better career playoff stats than Robinson.

Not one year, not 2, not 3, not 5. Career playoff stats. They aren't close. That's always a huge factor when comparing 2 greats. Always.