Reply With Quote
He could have as many as the seasons he's played. No reason to think any goal not achieved is more "could have" than any other. He has a chance to win every time he's on the floor.
6 le doesn't make Tim the GOAT. He's seeing diminishing returns on team success these days because he's so close to the top of the pile already. He's the best to ever to it how he's done it, but MJ would still be the GOAT for other reasons.
Tim doesn't need another ring to be where he would be with another ring, he's there already.
He could have as many as the seasons he's played. No reason to think any goal not achieved is more "could have" than any other. He has a chance to win every time he's on the floor.
As always you have to distinguish between "peak value" and "career value." Classic baseball argument - Sandy Koufax is higher in the first list, while Warren Spahn, who had a much longer career but never was as dominant as Koufax, would've higher on the career value list. The SABR guru Bill James made this argument that you must have 2 lists, and he was right.
While Duncan continues to rise on the all time "career," his place on the " peak" list does not change since his peak was 1999-2005. I think he is a top 3-5 player on the career list , but barely a top 10 player on the peak list.
Also, the peak value is not the best season a player had, but the highest level of sustained value. This is more or less the sum of their top 5 or so seasons.
His resume is already up there with anyone..
Championships
Longevity
Dominance
Versatility
There is nothing he has not done..
They are in the same conversation.. Pretty amazing just to be even close..
To add to the point I just made, I think both Shaq and Hakeem would be above Duncan and Kareem in a list of all time greats- " peak value." But Kareem and TD are higher on the career list.
Jordan is #1 on my list for peak value and career list. I guy like Karl Malone would be higher on the career list than the peak value.
Actually, I think that's totally incorrect. A DPOY award is a validation that TD was the single best defender in the league over the course of a particular season. I think it's totally fair to say that winning a DPOY award nudges him up higher in the top 5 all-time discussion. Obviously, it doesn't mean as much as a finals MVP. But to say that it's meaningless is just a poor take. It would mean a lot to the legacy discussion.At this point in his career a DPOY makes no difference whatsoever. It's a 2nd rate award and a joke. Only things that count are more rings, FMVP and getting MVP votes as a 38+ year old.
You might as well say a MIP award would further cement his legacy
Players that are not on his level as defenders have won that award many times over.. It is meaningless when you look at who won and years he was overlooked.. His 1st team all D selections are amazing (8).. 12 years total on 1 of the all D teams..
A DPOY would be one more accolade and strengthen his defensive reputation. He's not going to get it anyway.
FWIW i already consider Duncan top 5, probably 4rth.
For those who argued that championships get discounted by being a role player (kobe rules) have to remember the dumb Horry>Kobe smack. This is a slippery slope type argument. How do you define a role player vs the alpha?
Jordan won 6 les as the alpha. No one bailed him out and he was always the best player when he stepped on the court. That's why he's all time number 1. Kobe was different shades of #1 and #2 throughout his career. He was rarely better than Shaq and not much better than Gasol. That's why Kobe is looking outside the top 15 now despite 5 les and whatever else you want to mention.
Duncan was absolutely the best player in the spurs 4 les. I know I'm supposed to say Parker in 2007 but I'm leaving my player fan status alone for tonight.
2014? Was he clearly better than Kawhi, Boris, etc? Did he impose his will? He did against OKC for sure. But the spurs did not need him to be MVP level last year and he won't be this year.
Now we need to separate two parts of legacy. The all time great lists are fun and all but they're bull . No one really thinks you can compare players across ages (eastern bloc training era especially)
The other part is whether Duncan gets remembered in years ahead. These late les (inshallah) are absolutely going to keep Duncan as an NBA icon for decades. Kobe too, despite being top 10-20 is going to be treated as a top 5 based on his celebrity status and ridiculous highlights. Duncan will be part of the all time great regardless of era. He'll be invited to NBA functions as much as he wants.
And to echo DMC, part of the problems is that you have diminishing returns after 3 championships. Otherwise Shaq would be heavily docked for being behind Kobe in ring count.
At this point the difference between Duncan and Kareem is measured in decimal points. It's preference. If you know statistics, then imagine having the same data run through hundreds of different algorithms or regression models. Thats what we have here. Every algorithm is going to value Duncan 6 (inshallah) more or less. I value it less because i already gave Duncan a big bump for 5. 6 isn't doing much. Only Phil Jackson cares about repeat , and repeating in 2004, 2006, or 2009 would have been much better for his career.
Oh and finally, LOL at op. When i first clicked on this thread I thought it was a player fan thread about Duncan moving to role player status. "Time to move past the HOF PF... yeah Kawhi's team!
GOAT of GOATs
IMO...TD already surpassed Bird
MJ
Kareem
Russell
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Kobe
Wilt
LBJ
Oh no Timmy will always be #1. If people valued defense and teamwork he may be the GOAT already.
Like i said, difference algorithms. The san antonio based algorithms might be especially biased
Michael Jordan was a great defender who knew how to build and play with winning teams.
My dream is that he rides off into the sunset as a Top 3 player of all-time after he three-peats next season.
Me too.
I think it was Ray Allen who said in 2005 that he thought Tim was already top 5 all time, I think he said that after the Spurs beat Allen's Sonics in the 2005 playoffs on a bad ankle. And he's kept adding rings to his collection ever since.
Last edited by Russo21; 04-14-2015 at 12:40 AM.
pretending American Cricket is a "sport" comparable to the NBA.
It will be how the 6th ring is won... That will determine the value of it affecting TD's legacy. And with Tiago being injured, Parker in a flux, Patty still dormant, excluding last game, Green a known threat, Manu a shadow of his former self and Kl still not really having been the man while being expected to be the Man.... If Tim Duncan has one last playoff span of utter brilliance, and is the main reason Spurs repeat..... Like the Houston game, of course his legend grows to more rarefied air.
If he is just the solid rock, I agree it doesn't raise his stock much, but I bet he will live out the rest of his days, as the city will and the big 3, that they finally repeated.
It was time to years ago. I've been saying for years that this le actually understates his greatness, because it tends to leave him out of the discussion for best big of all-time.
The vast majority of the national media can't seem to look past the power forward label, even though they've always (rightly) considered him more of a center. As if he can't be considered for both.
^ yep.. the greatest PF of all time label has become a short sell for Tim.. its like calling Magic the greatest PG of all time..everyone needs to forget about that label and start including him in greatest big of all time discussion.
Indeed. Over the last couple of years the Spurs have seen an upsurge in hipster-esque appreciation nationally, the anti-cool cool or what not, but that is not going to last. It is what it is, we got at least 25 seasons of winning basketball, save for one, in San Antonio de Bexar. And, with a little luck, that will continue on into a fourth decade.
I agree. . .with 6 he would be top 5 all time fairly easily imo. He possibly already is. You have Jordan, Russell, Jabaar, Duncan, and Magic imo. That's your top 5 in whatever order you wanna argue. Dude is a legend.
No one will remember the Spurs as "Parker's team". I like Parker more than most on here, but he will be about as remembered as John Starks. A good player but clearly a sidekick. As for Kawhi, he is good but look at his stats. This is his best year yet they're arguably still worse than Duncan's old man stats. I mean, look at WS/48 for this season (and this excuses Leonard for missing all that time). Almost identical. Offensive and Defensive ratings nearly identical. Duncan also slightly higher PER. And this is being old as against Kawhi being at a young 23.
Another interesting note, Duncan's only played less games in a season than Kawhi's most played season in his 4 year career only a single time in Duncan's 18 year career. And even that was only 7 games less (I'm excluding the shortened 1999 season where Duncan missed 0 games anyway). So Kawhi's team? History will not remember it as such either, even should Kawhi, after this season, become a star. Unless he has some super crazy breakout playoff run, it's still Duncan's team even this year imo.
The first 4 championship teams were undoubtedly TD's team even considering Tony's '07 MVP and Manu's performance in '05. In 2013, it was not HIS team, but TD was still arguably the best player in the team. In 2014, TD was among the best players in the team, but Kawhi, Diaw and Green all could make claims as the best performer during the playoffs run. Even Splitter could argue his case for a couple rounds.
In 2015, so far for the regular season, TD was the team MVP in the first half, and Kawhi was the team MVP in the second half. But the Spurs have a much better record during the second half, so Kawhi deservedly got the praise and attention from the national media. But remember, the Spurs made the turn-around in the second half with TD, not like Kawhi took the team to 2nd seed when TD missed the second half. IIRC, TD took a few games off during the early season for "DNP - old", but he hasn't missed a game for a looong time since the Spurs were in a uphill situation. Plus, other injured players like Splitter and Mills were slowly coming back later in the season. For the playoffs, I expect both TD and Kawhi play well, and I wish that Kawhi could elevate even more and make a clear case as the #1 guy for the Spurs. Because only by then, the Spurs could have a chance to take home #6.
All in all, it's very unfortunate that Pop and the Spurs choked in the last 30 seconds in 2013. That #4 Finals MVP would've made the strongest case for TD to be an All-time top 5 (or even top 3) player. But as long as the Spurs got the #6, that would satisfy all the Spurs fans.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
