TMac wouldn't even win a game of horse against MJ. He would get embarrased at 1-1.
Base on awards duncan is ahead of those guys you have mention like magic/bird etc, only thing duncan doesnt have is total stats records, thats the only thing that he doesnt have, Duncans game doesnt evolve around rackin up stats and records, he only cares about winning.
In response to TDMVPDPOY: As I recall, Duncan has as many championships as Bird, but one less MVP award. Similarly, he has two championships less than Magic, and one less MVP. He does have more All-NBA defense awards than either (I think more than both combined), and that's very important, but I give more credence to MVP's and les in ranking players.
Again, this is no criticism of Duncan: he's the greatest PF ever, @ the seventh greatest player of all time, and he's still in his prime with a lot of support around him. I'd be surprised if he didn't catch Magic and Bird. And I wouldn't be shocked if he cracked the near-untouchable four.
Also, I agree with you that Duncan doesn't play for stats or records, he just plays to win. That's one of the things I like best about him.
Man, what's with your obsession with T-Mac? He scores a lot, can defend when he wants to, but guess what? He doesn't! As "bad" as Jordon was early in his career, he never lost a series where he led 3-1, or 2-0 as a lower seed.
T-Mac is a marginal passer (those assists != good passes, see Stephon Marbury), doesn't exert himself defensively, and is not a winner despite a very capable teammate in Yao Ming.
Of course you do know that Jordan faced a certain gentleman named Clyde Drexler and demolished him despite Clyde's unbelievable talents. He has also kept the likes of Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing and Miller without a ring, and if not for the two year hiatis, possibly even Hakeem.
To say that "Jordan never really faced talent like that of Kobe or TMAC in his days." just proved that you have not really seen a basketball game before the mid 90's, or even the late 90's.
Im not obssesed with TMAC i just think the man has got some serious talent he can hit three's, he can slam it down and he can shake anyone he wants. The dude is sick....face it, people place Jordan way too high i liked Jordan too he was great but not the greatest....
This perception I don't get. Obviously, if anyone paid attention robinson was a shadow of himself in his final year. No better then otis thorp in his prime with hakeem. It's not like robinson was dominating both ends of the court throwing up 20ppg and 10rpg.
I would say robinson that year was like having some of the better defensive minded post players in their prime like horace grant or otis thorp.
Jordan doesnt =god of nba like most you people think
Jordan, at the age of 39, averaged 20 pts per game, along with 6 rebounds and 3.79 assists. That is sick!
But just as amazing, at the age of 39, another player averaged 20.58 points per game, along with 7.75 rebounds and 4.68 assists. At the age of 39!!
That man was Karl Malone, the second greatest power forward of all-time.
Just wondering what kind of numbers you guys/gals think Tim will be putting up in 10 years. Because of his knee problems (and ankles), I doubt he will be able to put up those kind of numbers at 39, but I can always dream, can't I?
Not to bash Duncan, but Magic got 3 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, 5 rings, 9 Finals appearance, 2 All-star MVPs, 9 All-NBA first teams (consecutive).
Bird has two Finals MVP, 3 MVPs, 3 rings, 9 All-NBA 1st team.
That's some pretty crazy awards. And the reason they didn't get more is because they play in the same era and took the awards away from each other.
Go check out the numbers man. Jordan was a much better 3 point shooter than TMac.
Oh btw where would you place Jordan? Im curious.
Vince Carter can hit threes, he can slam it down and he can shake anyone he wants. The dude is sick. So what is your point? T-Mac isn't even held to the same regard as Kobe Bryant, a Jordan wannabe.
Sheesh, so could Harold Minor! See where that got him?
I have yet to see that you come up with any logical argument to why Jordan < TMac, other than your opinion and some trolling.
But on the other hand, I agree that Jordan is not the greatest, I would rate Wilt, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, and Oscar Robertson above him. Jordan, to me, is on the level of Bird, and slightly above Hakeem.
To be considered the best ever you need to be a ... great offensive player, great defender, great leader, great winner.
Magic : Zero defense, not much of a scorer, but the best passer of all time
Russell : Not enough offense, best big man defender of all time though
Jabbar : Was a monstrous player in his youth, but didn't win as much then. Team success came steadily only when he was one weapon on a team of many weapons (Magic, KAJ, Worthy all won Finals MVPs in the Showtime era)
Oscar : Similar to Jabbar. He had awesome talent, but didn't win till he played with Jabbar.
Bird : Can be rated along with the above, he too played on stacked teams, and didn't shoulder as much of the offensive load, but was clutch as .
Only Jordan and Wilt score high on all those categories. Wilt was obviously a statistical monster in his early days, but declined (maybe by choice) to be the main scoring option in his later Laker days. And he had only 2 'ships to his name.
Michael Jordan is the only player to have a complete resume on all fronts:
A. Offense:
Highest career PPG average, 10 scoring les, 5-time MVP, 10 All-NBA first team selections
B. Defense:
DPOY, 9 All-defensive first team selections
C. Winning:
6 championships with 2 three-peats, Finals MVP in all 6, 2 Olympic gold medals
D. Leadership:
The go-to guy on 6 championship teams, the anchor on both offense and defense, the guy who took and made numerous clutch shots under pressure.
Put the achievements of all the others in these 4 categories, you'll find that all of them lack something or the other. Only MJ had it all.
My point is that Jordan didn't go up against talent such as Kobe, TMAC, Carter, and such, if Jordan were in his prime today playing in the league he wouldnt be considered so great, he and Kobe would probably be the same....and I'm still not talking about team-wise im talking the player's alone.....if it were going to be a team battle i think the Spurs and Pistons of today would have killed the bulls of Jordans time
I do place Jordan at #2 I think Wilt the stilt was the greatest player to ever play the game...he brought a new dimension to the game revolutionized the nba. Jordan was just a living highlight reel thats it.
Have you ever seen Wilt played? You're just trolling.
There is always something that the others can't. Magic wasn't a good one on one defender, but he had always been a good team defender. The thing about him is that he played in a way that maximizes the talent around him. I could argue that Magic, Bird and Russell are the only ones who made his teammates around him much better. (note I said MUCH better). Laker team with no Magic went from a NBA Finalist to 8th seed and out in the first round, a Bulls team with no Jordan went from 57 wins to 55 wins, and a NBA champion to a 2nd round casualty. Huge difference I would say.
I somehow just factor in team success much more.
And don't forget that Wilt was only percentage points lower in his PPG for career than Jordan, and the only reason is that he passed more in his later days rather than score, he could have easily ended his career with a much higher PPG if he chose to be a ball hog. And then there is the part where you said Wilt is a winner, which he wasn't. He won two championships, both loaded with talent without him.
Thought u were takin the year off this forums?? why you still here?
apparently to call you out on your homer bias...
defend your viewpoints, don't attack posters...
hold on there batman, you said,
maybe you said one on one in anther post that i missed...but in your immediately preceding post, no mention of 1 on 1...and you finish it by saying Spurs would beat Bulls (which i would love to see, I think it goes 7 fo sure!).
and then, even when you clarify you meant 1 on 1...you say hands down....which means...domination....but then predict a 10-8 score...which if we go by win by 2 rules....is the minimum someone could win by. Which is it?
Hands down or close game? I say both are wrong. TMac is a very very talented player...and he may even have greater hops than MJ did in his prime, but I haven't seen TMacs freethrow line dunk, so it's hard to say...
Point being, TMac would lose 1 on 1. Sure, he'd make a game of it, but I'd bet Jordan wins 10-5. And if a REF is there? Jordan wins 10-0, unless TMac launches from way downtown without Jordan on his ass...
Dominique was a living highlight reel that's it. TMac is a living highlight reel that's it. Vince Carter...right now, Lebron (although his time is coming), and every other balla without a ring....
Now Jordan? He was a SIX TIME NBA CHAMPION. That's it.
when/if, cross you fingers...Tim Duncan leads our Spurs to le #6 and le #7....THEN we can say, yup, TD belongs in the discussion for BEST PLAYER EVER...
Til then...lets just focus on #fo.
TD has only ONE weakness...and we all know it...his damn Freethrows.
Stop thinkin so much Tim! Just focus, and shoot the mofos....you've shot a million before...and stop with that stupid duck stance...
you can do it Bigdawg...youda in MVP! raise yo game....i want him to shoot a freethrow with his eyes closed one day, just like MJ did...
TD thinks too damn much at the line if he were to just get the ball and not pause between dribble and shot, he would make that , he just thinks too damn much on it and im sorry guys but TMAC would pull out a close victory in a one on one game <--there i clarified it for you...
Jordan by IceManBrewski is lock at number one = that is an inane statement!
Oh for those who do not know history!
Jordan many less championships than Russell and much, much less dominant than Wilt, and less MPVs than Jabbar = who also had the most unstobbable single shot in the history of the game.
I personally put Jordan at 3 just barely ahead of Jabbar, period. Believe that in my lifetime I will see Duncan, and either Wade or James pass him.
Peter D. Rumm, MD
Basketball News Service
My opinion: #23 should be retired in all of Basketball, every level. It may be a stretch, but not only is he the greatest, he saved the league.
The only other en y to ever come closer to saving a sport and major league? BALCO...and they got caught!
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