Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?

[TD 21]

He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.

Agreed.

I've always said, the biggest award travesty in major North American professional sports, is Duncan not winning DPOY. He should have a bunch and the only reasons he doesn't, is 1) He doesn't look the part of a great defender and 2) The majority of the media/casual fans, know very little about defense and up until recently, the weren't nearly as many metrics for it as offense (even now, it still lags behind).

[cjw]

Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.

He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:

		Player	MP	DWS	DWS/48 (x100)
1		Bill Russell*	40726	133.6	15.75
2		George Mikan*	8350	22.2	12.76
3		David Robinson*	34271	80.1	11.22
4		Tim Duncan	47042	105.8	10.80
5		Ben Wallace	32085	70.6	10.56
6		Tom Heinsohn*	19254	41.7	10.40
7		K.C. Jones*	17501	37.9	10.39
8		Hakeem Olajuwon*	44222	94.5	10.26
9		Arvydas Sabonis*	11375	23.3	9.83
10		Patrick Ewing*	40594	81.4	9.63
11		Tom Boerwinkle	14387	28.8	9.61
12		Dwight Howard	30581	60.3	9.46
13		Wilt Chamberlain*	47859	93.9	9.42
14		Marcus Camby	28684	54.9	9.19
15		Mark Eaton	25169	48.0	9.15
16		Paul George	11453	21.7	9.09
17		Tom Sanders*	22164	41.9	9.07
18		Dennis Rodman*	28839	54.5	9.07
19		Joakim Noah	16848	31.8	9.06
20		Dave Cowens*	29565	55.8	9.06
21		Dikembe Mutombo*	36791	68.5	8.94
22		Clifford Ray	19940	37.1	8.93
23		Bill Walton*	13250	24.6	8.91
24		Yao Ming	15818	29.3	8.89
25		Alonzo Mourning*	25975	48.0	8.87
26		Mel Daniels*	22466	41.2	8.80
27		Kevin Garnett	50418	91.5	8.71
28		Sam Jones*	24285	43.7	8.64
29		Manu Ginobili	24036	43.0	8.59
30		Wes Unseld*	35832	64.1	8.59
31		Shawn Kemp	29293	52.2	8.55
32		Tree Rollins	24028	42.1	8.41
33		George Johnson	18102	31.7	8.41
34		Nate Thurmond*	35881	62.2	8.32
35		Larry Bird*	34443	59.0	8.22
36		Len Elmore	12389	21.0	8.14
37		Chris Dudley	16321	27.6	8.12
38		Tony Allen	15496	26.2	8.12
39		Jermaine O'Neal	27364	46.1	8.09
40		Karl Malone*	54852	92.4	8.09
41		Bobby Jones	25728	43.2	8.06
42		Taj Gibson	12420	20.8	8.04
43		Elvin Hayes*	50000	83.7	8.04
44		DeAndre Jordan	15569	25.9	7.99
45		Frank Ramsey*	15330	25.4	7.95
46		Malik Rose	13404	22.2	7.95
47		Harvey Catchings	13182	21.8	7.94
48		Rich Kelley	17711	29.2	7.91
49		Alton Lister	18965	31.2	7.90
50		Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	57446	94.5	7.90
51		Jack Sikma	36943	60.7	7.89
52		Scottie Pippen*	41069	67.3	7.87
53		George McGinnis	28179	46.1	7.85
54		Julius Erving*	45227	73.8	7.83
55		Darryl Dawkins	17235	28.0	7.80
56		Dolph Schayes*	29800	48.3	7.78
57		Bob Cousy*	30165	48.7	7.75
58		Anderson Varejao	14858	23.9	7.72
59		Curtis Perry	13656	21.9	7.70
60		Alvan Adams	27203	43.6	7.69
61		Artis Gilmore*	47134	75.5	7.69
62		Rick Mahorn	25779	41.2	7.67
63		Robert Parish*	45704	73.0	7.67
64		Kendrick Perkins	16845	26.9	7.67
65		John Havlicek*	46471	74.1	7.65
66		Robert Horry	27069	43.1	7.64
67		Charlie Ward	14080	22.4	7.64
68		Shaquille O'Neal	41918	66.4	7.60
69		Shawn Bradley	19531	30.8	7.57
70		Rasheed Wallace	36243	57.1	7.56
71		Andrew Bogut	18662	29.4	7.56
72		Charles Oakley	40280	63.3	7.54
73		Greg Ostertag	14753	23.1	7.52
74		Rajon Rondo	20827	32.6	7.51
75		Gar Heard	19571	30.6	7.50
76		Vlade Divac	33838	52.9	7.50
77		Michael Jordan*	41011	64.1	7.50
78		Gerald Govan	22925	35.8	7.50
79		Kenyon Martin	23134	36.1	7.49
80		Chris Webber	30847	47.8	7.44
81		Jeff Foster	15750	24.3	7.41
82		Roy Hibbert	15367	23.7	7.40
83		Kurt Thomas	27160	41.8	7.39
84		Samuel Dalembert	21646	33.3	7.38
85		Jerome Kersey	28115	43.2	7.38
86		Larry Siegfried	13632	20.9	7.36
87		Shawn Marion	40097	61.3	7.34
88		Dave DeBusschere*	31202	47.7	7.34
89		Serge Ibaka	14723	22.5	7.34
90		Marvin Webster	13364	20.4	7.33
91		LeBron James	37991	57.9	7.32
92		Nate McMillan	20462	31.1	7.30
93		Paul Millsap	21784	32.9	7.25
94		Mel Counts	13723	20.7	7.24
95		Tyson Chandler	27726	41.7	7.22
96		Dan Roundfield	24210	36.4	7.22
97		Jason Kidd	50111	75.1	7.19
98		Marcin Gortat	14832	22.2	7.18
99		Kurt Rambis	16299	24.3	7.16
100		Marc Gasol	19190	28.5	7.13

[Spurtacular]

He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:

		Player	MP	DWS	DWS/48 (x100)
1		Bill Russell*	40726	133.6	15.75
2		George Mikan*	8350	22.2	12.76
3		David Robinson*	34271	80.1	11.22
4		Tim Duncan	47042	105.8	10.80
5		Ben Wallace	32085	70.6	10.56
6		Tom Heinsohn*	19254	41.7	10.40
7		K.C. Jones*	17501	37.9	10.39
8		Hakeem Olajuwon*	44222	94.5	10.26
9		Arvydas Sabonis*	11375	23.3	9.83
10		Patrick Ewing*	40594	81.4	9.63
11		Tom Boerwinkle	14387	28.8	9.61
12		Dwight Howard	30581	60.3	9.46
13		Wilt Chamberlain*	47859	93.9	9.42
14		Marcus Camby	28684	54.9	9.19
15		Mark Eaton	25169	48.0	9.15
16		Paul George	11453	21.7	9.09
17		Tom Sanders*	22164	41.9	9.07
18		Dennis Rodman*	28839	54.5	9.07
19		Joakim Noah	16848	31.8	9.06
20		Dave Cowens*	29565	55.8	9.06
21		Dikembe Mutombo*	36791	68.5	8.94
22		Clifford Ray	19940	37.1	8.93
23		Bill Walton*	13250	24.6	8.91
24		Yao Ming	15818	29.3	8.89
25		Alonzo Mourning*	25975	48.0	8.87
26		Mel Daniels*	22466	41.2	8.80
27		Kevin Garnett	50418	91.5	8.71
28		Sam Jones*	24285	43.7	8.64
29		Manu Ginobili	24036	43.0	8.59
30		Wes Unseld*	35832	64.1	8.59
31		Shawn Kemp	29293	52.2	8.55
32		Tree Rollins	24028	42.1	8.41
33		George Johnson	18102	31.7	8.41
34		Nate Thurmond*	35881	62.2	8.32
35		Larry Bird*	34443	59.0	8.22
36		Len Elmore	12389	21.0	8.14
37		Chris Dudley	16321	27.6	8.12
38		Tony Allen	15496	26.2	8.12
39		Jermaine O'Neal	27364	46.1	8.09
40		Karl Malone*	54852	92.4	8.09
41		Bobby Jones	25728	43.2	8.06
42		Taj Gibson	12420	20.8	8.04
43		Elvin Hayes*	50000	83.7	8.04
44		DeAndre Jordan	15569	25.9	7.99
45		Frank Ramsey*	15330	25.4	7.95
46		Malik Rose	13404	22.2	7.95
47		Harvey Catchings	13182	21.8	7.94
48		Rich Kelley	17711	29.2	7.91
49		Alton Lister	18965	31.2	7.90
50		Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	57446	94.5	7.90
51		Jack Sikma	36943	60.7	7.89
52		Scottie Pippen*	41069	67.3	7.87
53		George McGinnis	28179	46.1	7.85
54		Julius Erving*	45227	73.8	7.83
55		Darryl Dawkins	17235	28.0	7.80
56		Dolph Schayes*	29800	48.3	7.78
57		Bob Cousy*	30165	48.7	7.75
58		Anderson Varejao	14858	23.9	7.72
59		Curtis Perry	13656	21.9	7.70
60		Alvan Adams	27203	43.6	7.69
61		Artis Gilmore*	47134	75.5	7.69
62		Rick Mahorn	25779	41.2	7.67
63		Robert Parish*	45704	73.0	7.67
64		Kendrick Perkins	16845	26.9	7.67
65		John Havlicek*	46471	74.1	7.65
66		Robert Horry	27069	43.1	7.64
67		Charlie Ward	14080	22.4	7.64
68		Shaquille O'Neal	41918	66.4	7.60
69		Shawn Bradley	19531	30.8	7.57
70		Rasheed Wallace	36243	57.1	7.56
71		Andrew Bogut	18662	29.4	7.56
72		Charles Oakley	40280	63.3	7.54
73		Greg Ostertag	14753	23.1	7.52
74		Rajon Rondo	20827	32.6	7.51
75		Gar Heard	19571	30.6	7.50
76		Vlade Divac	33838	52.9	7.50
77		Michael Jordan*	41011	64.1	7.50
78		Gerald Govan	22925	35.8	7.50
79		Kenyon Martin	23134	36.1	7.49
80		Chris Webber	30847	47.8	7.44
81		Jeff Foster	15750	24.3	7.41
82		Roy Hibbert	15367	23.7	7.40
83		Kurt Thomas	27160	41.8	7.39
84		Samuel Dalembert	21646	33.3	7.38
85		Jerome Kersey	28115	43.2	7.38
86		Larry Siegfried	13632	20.9	7.36
87		Shawn Marion	40097	61.3	7.34
88		Dave DeBusschere*	31202	47.7	7.34
89		Serge Ibaka	14723	22.5	7.34
90		Marvin Webster	13364	20.4	7.33
91		LeBron James	37991	57.9	7.32
92		Nate McMillan	20462	31.1	7.30
93		Paul Millsap	21784	32.9	7.25
94		Mel Counts	13723	20.7	7.24
95		Tyson Chandler	27726	41.7	7.22
96		Dan Roundfield	24210	36.4	7.22
97		Jason Kidd	50111	75.1	7.19
98		Marcin Gortat	14832	22.2	7.18
99		Kurt Rambis	16299	24.3	7.16
100		Marc Gasol	19190	28.5	7.13

Yea, that list is a better barometer. Good work.

[Brazil]

I guess your ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.

Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point got ?

[Kawhitstorm]

Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point got ?

Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement:

[Brazil]

Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement:

you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on ulative DWS, that was this ulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yes. #1 PF defender of all time. If you were making an all NBA defense historic team, Tim would be at PF. Before long Kawhi will be the other forward on that list.

[DMC]

If you consider his entire body of work, not his his peak vs other players' peaks, you'd have a hard time justifying leaving Tim out of that conversation.

[Kawhitstorm]

you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on ulative DWS, that was this ulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's ulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.

[dbreiden83080]

Easily..

[Brazil]

Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's ulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.

I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of ulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than ulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

[Kawhitstorm]

I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of ulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than ulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face:

[Brazil]

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face:

bruh I was referring to a freaking list posted just before... I failed to acknowledge... I can say DWS is not a good metric but at the same time I would not know that DWS/48 exist or DBPM exist... smh

bruh DWS/48 is also flawed

[Brazil]

BTW I continue on the notion that it is not a great metrics but not totally useless tbh...