Warriors: Is Chef making his case for 2nd best PG all time?

[Killakobe81]

Bird was clearly the better player from start till 86. THen His back gave up. He’s never been about records. He doesn’t really put up ridiculous stats and is more about controlling the flow of the game.

Magics regular season assist records were great but they have been broken by Stockton and I think even Mark Jackson got more career assists than him. What playoff records are you speaking of?

I agree lebron surpassed them both but given the two, I think bird is slightly better than magic.

H2h is again about team. The team with jabbar is likely gonna win more than the team with mchale. Mchale was great but just saying.

Also, bird had to got through Detroit and were pretty roughed up when they get to the finals, who did magic had to go through? The Mavs and the rockets were their greatest threats till the finals and the league took care of both of them for the lakers. about those teams having druggies but the drug capital of he world didn’t have anyone with drug problems.

OK a debate worth still debating. A couple things its easy to say like Bird has never been about records ... when the numbers dont backup or support your argument. But I'm gonna make a case using stats, eye-test, consensus rankings etc. My goal is not to change your mind you can take Bird over Magic I do think it is relatively close and subjective as most good debates are ... but I do think Magic is clearly ahead and I will outline why. Of course I admit I am biased which is why I Will focus on the data first.
But Amb, we have done this dance and you used plenty to support ole Timmy I will do the same for Magic.

Magic 19.5 pts 7 rebs 11 asts per game. HE led the league in steals twice and assists 4x . His career win shares = 155.8 and PER = 24.1
Bird 24.3 pts 10 rebs and 6.3 assists per game. He never led the league in any the main counting categories, however he did lead the league in mins 3x (BOS was dumb) and FT%, 4x PER=23.5 WS = 145.8 Magic also leads in career triple doubles 138 to 59.

But why not look to the playoffs? We are talking about the GOAT PG and the GOAT SF (pre Lebron) and supposedly they are close but Bird is better?! right? Numbers say otherwise
Magic: 19.5pts 7.7 rebs 12.3 asts PER = 23.0 WS = 32.6 WS/48 = .208 VORP: 17.8 TS%: .595
Bird : 23.8 pts 10.3 rebs 6.5 assts PER = 21.4 WS= 24.8 WS/48 = .173 VORP: 15.4 TS% .551

I am looking pretty hard but please help me out ... besides scoring and rebounds what is bird better at than Magic by the numbers?
If we dig further Magic also leads in Offensive and Defensive win shares, neither are my favorites but back in our previous debate you sure did love to throw around numbers ...please explain these?

But I wont stop there lets keep it going ...
Magic and Bird faced off in the NBA Finals in 1984, 1985 and 1987. Magic won twice but amb is right its a team sport ... SO lets look at those playoff individual numbers.

In 1984 Bird led all playoff performers in win shares, total rebounds and total points and was Finals MVP deservedly so. I was young but fully invested in the NBA and this dude (along with gerald henderson) ripped my ing heart out. No doubt best player on the planet, bar none even with a young MJ looming.

In 1985 Magic led all playoff performers in win shares and assists but Kareem stole his finals MVP and the series is knotted at 1-1. Bird was good but nothing like '84. He still led all playoff players in rebs (doing this exercise reminds me what a great freaking rebounder Bird was for a non elite athlete like Barkley or Rodman)

In 1987 it was close, but Magic led all in win shares and assists but Bird was the leader in points and rebounds ...though Magic was finals MVP and pushed ahead 2-1

Now lets look at the NBA Finals records:
Magic owns the following:
single game assists, in fact who owns or shares 8 of the top 10 all-time
Career assists with almost 250 more than King james (Bird is 10th tied with a certain snake known for ball-hogging)
Magic is the Finals leader in steals, 21 more than the King of Akron, Bird is 5th (not bad) just 2 behind that snake guy again ...(BTW mad props to Bird who leads the GOAT, MJ in NBA FINALS in steals ... I would have NEVER guessed that watching both play)

I could keep going but I'm gonna stop and allow this to marinate before i get in to ranks, awards etc. since its all subjective. I did look at rebounds btw, but Magic has him beat there too ..but Bird was an amazing rebounder but pointing to single game is pointless Wilt and Russell dominate ...but Bird is 11th career wise behind shaq, Magic Duncan etc.

To be continued amb, your serve ...

[DMC]

Bird is a tall ugly white mother er with white privilege.

Magic has HIV in his asshole and his son is a cross dressing got.

close call

[lefty]

I don't even see Curry as a point guard. He's an under-sized SG. His playmaking skills are average (above average at best). He gets careless with the ball a lot and makes dumb passes.

Agreed

[ambchang]

Did you go to sat classes after school, by any chance?

I don’t know what that is tbh. But I do remember your sister after school.

[ambchang]

OK a debate worth still debating. A couple things its easy to say like Bird has never been about records ... when the numbers dont backup or support your argument. But I'm gonna make a case using stats, eye-test, consensus rankings etc. My goal is not to change your mind you can take Bird over Magic I do think it is relatively close and subjective as most good debates are ... but I do think Magic is clearly ahead and I will outline why. Of course I admit I am biased which is why I Will focus on the data first.
But Amb, we have done this dance and you used plenty to support ole Timmy I will do the same for Magic.

Magic 19.5 pts 7 rebs 11 asts per game. HE led the league in steals twice and assists 4x . His career win shares = 155.8 and PER = 24.1
Bird 24.3 pts 10 rebs and 6.3 assists per game. He never led the league in any the main counting categories, however he did lead the league in mins 3x (BOS was dumb) and FT%, 4x PER=23.5 WS = 145.8 Magic also leads in career triple doubles 138 to 59.

But why not look to the playoffs? We are talking about the GOAT PG and the GOAT SF (pre Lebron) and supposedly they are close but Bird is better?! right? Numbers say otherwise
Magic: 19.5pts 7.7 rebs 12.3 asts PER = 23.0 WS = 32.6 WS/48 = .208 VORP: 17.8 TS%: .595
Bird : 23.8 pts 10.3 rebs 6.5 assts PER = 21.4 WS= 24.8 WS/48 = .173 VORP: 15.4 TS% .551

I am looking pretty hard but please help me out ... besides scoring and rebounds what is bird better at than Magic by the numbers?
If we dig further Magic also leads in Offensive and Defensive win shares, neither are my favorites but back in our previous debate you sure did love to throw around numbers ...please explain these?

But I wont stop there lets keep it going ...
Magic and Bird faced off in the NBA Finals in 1984, 1985 and 1987. Magic won twice but amb is right its a team sport ... SO lets look at those playoff individual numbers.

In 1984 Bird led all playoff performers in win shares, total rebounds and total points and was Finals MVP deservedly so. I was young but fully invested in the NBA and this dude (along with gerald henderson) ripped my ing heart out. No doubt best player on the planet, bar none even with a young MJ looming.

In 1985 Magic led all playoff performers in win shares and assists but Kareem stole his finals MVP and the series is knotted at 1-1. Bird was good but nothing like '84. He still led all playoff players in rebs (doing this exercise reminds me what a great freaking rebounder Bird was for a non elite athlete like Barkley or Rodman)

In 1987 it was close, but Magic led all in win shares and assists but Bird was the leader in points and rebounds ...though Magic was finals MVP and pushed ahead 2-1

Now lets look at the NBA Finals records:
Magic owns the following:
single game assists, in fact who owns or shares 8 of the top 10 all-time
Career assists with almost 250 more than King james (Bird is 10th tied with a certain snake known for ball-hogging)
Magic is the Finals leader in steals, 21 more than the King of Akron, Bird is 5th (not bad) just 2 behind that snake guy again ...(BTW mad props to Bird who leads the GOAT, MJ in NBA FINALS in steals ... I would have NEVER guessed that watching both play)

I could keep going but I'm gonna stop and allow this to marinate before i get in to ranks, awards etc. since its all subjective. I did look at rebounds btw, but Magic has him beat there too ..but Bird was an amazing rebounder but pointing to single game is pointless Wilt and Russell dominate ...but Bird is 11th career wise behind shaq, Magic Duncan etc.

To be continued amb, your serve ...

Can’t research too much as I’m on vacation (yes I still check spurstalk).

Bird led the league in vorp and bpm four times and magic only got it once. Birds ws/48 was killed by injuries and his last few years. As for career totals I admit magic does beat magic but that is again due to injuries. I felt birds prime was so dominant that it doesn’t need the longevity to make it up. Birds peak was comparable to Shaqs lebron’s and Jordan’s. Just totally dominant.

Magics got the nod mostly due to rings but really he’s got better teams and worse compe ion.

[Killakobe81]

Can’t research too much as I’m on vacation (yes I still check spurstalk).

Bird led the league in vorp and bpm four times and magic only got it once. Birds ws/48 was killed by injuries and his last few years. As for career totals I admit magic does beat magic but that is again due to injuries. I felt birds prime was so dominant that it doesn’t need the longevity to make it up. Birds peak was comparable to Shaqs lebron’s and Jordan’s. Just totally dominant.

Magics got the nod mostly due to rings but really he’s got better teams and worse compe ion.

Enjoy your vacay hit me back (respond) when u get home be safe...

[Mitch]

I don’t know what that is tbh. But I do remember your sister after school.

We never met the people who picked our rice, tbh

[chunticakes]

No.

[james evans]

For those who rank Stockton above Nash, what are your reasons? Nash was a better shooter, and was also an expert at weaving into the paint for a layup or dish, making him somewhat of a Curry Lite.

i see what the age bracket is for this forum. Nash does nothing better than stockton. Their shooting is about equal. Stockton was better at everything else. Ballhandling is not a statistic for determining all time great status.

[Arcadian]

i see what the age bracket is for this forum. Nash does nothing better than stockton. Their shooting is about equal. Stockton was better at everything else. Ballhandling is not a statistic for determining all time great status.

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?

[james evans]

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?

5 goddamn %??? hahah. cmon man. I've watched stockton his whole career. He was money from 3. Like I said, without looking at numbers, "shooting is about equal" and stockton was better at everything else. Stockton could score but he chose to get his team involved. That's why he's the all time leader in assists. Plus when it comes to defense, that aint close whatsoever. And let's not talk about passing. Please tell me you aren't insinuating that Stockton couldn't penetrate to the paint. Just tell me you are not trying to say that. Stockton ran that pick'n roll with Malone like no one else.

[Arcadian]

5 goddamn %??? hahah. cmon man. I've watched stockton his whole career. He was money from 3. Like I said, without looking at numbers, "shooting is about equal" and stockton was better at everything else. Stockton could score but he chose to get his team involved. That's why he's the all time leader in assists. Plus when it comes to defense, that aint close whatsoever. And let's not talk about passing. Please tell me you aren't insinuating that Stockton couldn't penetrate to the paint. Just tell me you are not trying to say that. Stockton ran that pick'n roll with Malone like no one else.

Ok. 5% is actually significant for 3P%. No, I wasn't insinuating that. Thanks for your input (maybe try without the condescension next time).

Nash was more similar to Curry. That's all I wanted to say. So if Curry is the 2nd best PG of all time, Nash isn't far behind.

[endrity]

I'd might Stockton over Nash too, because he was more durable throughout the career, and a much better defender. But Nash was a better scorer. It's not just the extra 5%, Nash was taking much crazier threes coming around picks and stopping on a dime during fast breaks, or saving broken possessions. Stockton was much more the spot up shooter. Nash was also much more creative around the basket. The problem is that essentially you are arguing for a 5-year peak from 2005-10, against a 20-year constant career for Stockton.

If it's peak alone, I might be tempted to pick Nash.

[ambchang]

We never met the people who picked our rice, tbh

Yeah knew your stepdad was Asian otherwise why you’d eat so much Asian rice?

[LkrFan]

Did you go to sat classes after school, by any chance?

[ambchang]

Stockton will injure you to win.

He’d make friends with a pedophile and chuck his morals out the door to win.

Nash flops to lose.

Nash just wanna have fun.

That’s the difference.

[DMC]

Stockton will injure you to win.

He’d make friends with a pedophile and chuck his morals out the door to win.

Nash flops to lose.

Nash just wanna have fun.

That’s the difference.

Do you write for Grantland?

Just curious, your takes are so fresh and insightful.

[Raven]

Yes, he already is..it's the weakest position of all, the bar is pretty low

Other than Magic and 1990 Isiah, there isn't another PG with a particularly impressive playoff run in comparison..Iguodala's Finals MVP robbery created a false perception(would have been like Danny Green winning over Parker and Duncan in 2013 if 6 didn't happen)

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Paul
4. Thomas
5. Stockton
6. Nash
7. Payton
8. Westbrook
9. Kidd
10. Maybe a pity selection of Oscar Robertson out of respect for old timers

how is paul above stockton?

[spurraider21]

stockton's game wasn't predicated around his 3 point shooting ability the way nash's was. it's a really weird line to draw in the sand

[Mikeanaro]

Nope, he is an overrated chucker.

[LkrFan]

Nope, he is an overrated chucker.

[Arcadian]

I'd might Stockton over Nash too, because he was more durable throughout the career, and a much better defender. But Nash was a better scorer. It's not just the extra 5%, Nash was taking much crazier threes coming around picks and stopping on a dime during fast breaks, or saving broken possessions. Stockton was much more the spot up shooter. Nash was also much more creative around the basket. The problem is that essentially you are arguing for a 5-year peak from 2005-10, against a 20-year constant career for Stockton.

If it's peak alone, I might be tempted to pick Nash.

That's reasonable. Generally I feel the better peak should be ranked higher.

[spurraider21]

stockton attempted 1.5 3's per game for his career... it wasn't really part of his game. discussing his 3pt% is kinda useless

stockton was much quicker than nash. much sharper cross-overs. despite his efficiency, he wasnt the same shooting threat nash was. not by a long shot.

[ambchang]

Do you write for Grantland?

Just curious, your takes are so fresh and insightful.

Thanks. I take pride in being able to type one key at a time instead of matching six keys together with one keystroke.

[tholdren]

Nash was a better 3P shooter, 43% to 38%.

He was also a more dynamic scorer. He was great at using dribble penetration to score in the paint. He could finish in a variety of ways with both hands despite his lack of hops.

I'll admit I don't know who was better overall, though. What's your argument?

Lol nash and stockton easily better than curry. Easily.