Preseason Grades: Spurs at Rockets - Dec. 17, 2020

[Dejounte]

The NBA season is an up-and-down season. It's exactly why I try to refrain from being too negative or too positive because later on these posts could look really stupid. I've watched the NBA for decades to learn that you don't close the book on something this early on, especially when it's preseason. I guess it's easier to weed out the wiser posters than the foolish ones. Maybe it's all just part of being a message board, and it's a given to see people write impulse-driven posts.

Yet people will read this post and later on say, "HA, you're an idiot for believing in the team early in the season." As if it's some type of accomplishment for posters like me (who try to stay neutral) to be wrong.

[objective]

"more bad than good"

I'm really disappointed in you, objective

I'm not hating on Murray. Go through my posts the past 2+ years, you'll see I'm no hater.

But I'm tired of his decision making being so slow after so long. It's like you can tell the gears are turning but it takes too long. I'm tired of his indecision with the ball. Whether to drive, whether to pull up for three, whether to go for the midrange. There's stutters when he has to act like a glitch in the matrix. When he decides to drive, it's fine. When he decides to shoot three, it's fine as far as the choice goes. Same for the mid-range pull-up. But he has such problems making those quick decisions that it's really grating on me.

I think it's why he looks better with White when White handles the ball, because it takes some of the burden of choice from Murray and he can just act. Otherwise he has the ball and he doesn't just have to make decisions on his own game, he also has to worry about Aldridge who pouts when he doesn't get the ball when and where he likes it, he has DeRozan wanting the ball, he has Gay getting rebounds and deciding he's point-Rudy ... just better to have White in charge and Murray can be freed to play off of him in ways he isn't without White there.

And I don't think he looks stronger than before, or faster. I liked the drives in game 2. I didn't blame him for the turnovers bouncing off of Aldridge.

But it's been 4+ years and he still doesn't have the decisiveness I thought he'd have by now. He still has the same poor ball handling where I think he got straight ripped by Cousins twice the other night. And I appreciate that Cousins has usually been good with steals and I like that Murray did a rip right back on the second one, but I am through anticipating a breakthrough. It could still happen, I hope it does and for the Spurs sake I hope it does, but I'm not counting on it. I have no confidence in him.

I don't blame the Spurs for doing the deal. After Kawhi torpedoed their reputation, they had to take their first opportunity to put a good faith 'we believe' contract on a young player, a hurt player at that, and a player with an agency that had a rep for being hard to work with. I thought he'd have the confidence to make the tough decisions and attack. But there's just hesitation now.

[objective]

Also, you must be be on drugs if you believe we would go after a player who does these kinds of antics. Not only that, he also ing sucks and is an empty stat stuffer.

To also mention DeMar as the one to be traded for him is absurd. DeMar isn't the one hurting the team right now.

Tired of all these out of nowhere comments. Judge the team fairly. Criticism is fine when it's honest (and I've seen good ones).

When I put addition by subtraction, I mean it.

IF, and it's only an IF, Pop won't start small with DDR at PF because he's worried about DeMar holding up or staying healthy or whatever, then that's a problem. Should White and Johnson come back and then it's a smallball line-up then no problem.

But I'm not so naive to think that Pop can't screw up. And at that point options can be on the table to reduce that problem. If Pop won't play DDR at PF, then swap DDR for someone who Pop would play at PF. Leaving time and opportunity for White, Murray, Vassell, Johnson, and Walker at the 1-3 spots.

Getting players out of the way so Pop can't play them, overplay them, or use them incorrectly I think works. Look at Vassell right now. Where would he be if Forbes was back and had a 3 year deal instead of 2? If Marco had a 3 year deal instead of 2?

So it's just an exercise in thinking out loud and putting thoughts on a board. It's nothing too serious, just a thought exercise.

[Prime BEEF]

Walker: Probably the worst single game from a Spur in a long time from Lonnie, dude looks mentally broken. A lot of the blame for development belongs with him, but it's not like he's been developed well by Pop. Dude was a sounding like a space cadet talking about the world being a hologram who treated his hair like Samson, he needed some special attention.

Murray was more bad than good. He looks worse than the bubble, he doesn't even look as good in the pre-bubble games. Another case where a former point guard as an assistant coach to help him probably could not have hurt. Doubt he's getting any insight from Will Hardy or Mitch Johnson.

Lyles is on his way out of the NBA if he's not careful. He'll be getting minimums and LLEs from here on out, and that's the kind of deal he'd be on now if the Spurs hadn't been shanked by Morris and given a charity deal to Lyles afterwards like bad teams do. He just doesn't do anything that well. And unfortunately he's still better at everything than Samanic.

Poeltl was real bad too. No excuses for him.

Vassell looks like he should start right now with DeRozan at the 4. As bad as Aldridge has been, I do think some of it was predictable given his past moping if he didn't think he was getting the ball at the right time in the right place. White coming back whenever that happens will help a lot, but Vassell would help also as far as being a smart player on the court. Keldon Johnson might be stronger and better suited to bang as a starter instead, but Vassell's floor generaling defense and shooting might be better for the team.

Mills was pretty bad again. With FIBA Mills, it's feast or vomit, and it's probably going to be vomit 2 out of every 3 games or 3 out of 4.

As far as addressing things with trades this year:

The one semi-plausible trade I can think of is something involving DeRozan and salary for Blake Griffin. It kills the Spurs caproom for an extra year for sure, but I can't think of anything else that could plausibly work for any other trade partner. It makes the Spurs worse talent-wise, but the fit could have a decent result by creating more opportunities for other players at positions and roles they aren't getting enough time at now.

For the Spurs, Griffin will be a better PF than DeRozan, or at east more suited to it. He moves like busted Terry mings, but he's probably not any worse a defender than DeRozan at this point. And he shoots 3s, thought not well last year. He's a good passer for keeping the ball moving, good at feeding bigs down low, and would need a minutes limit giving more time to other players.

It's like trading bad for worse, but I can't see other trades that would help.

I don't even think Boston has enough room to be able to take Aldridge, what with his trade kicker and their hard cap.

DDR/Murray/Lyles for Griffin/Bey/draft pick. Think it’s a good deal for both teams.

[Prime BEEF]

BTW, I think anyone who got excited watching the bubble squad perform well in the summer should probably temper expectations for a repeat this season. Many of the Spurs' opponents were half-assing it knowing they were already assured a playoff spot for the most part. I don't give much credence to it.

Not much has changed. The players are saying a bunch of positive stuff in their interviews but we all know its lip service. If Derozan thought some other team would pay him as much as he's getting for opting-in, he'd be gone. Aldridge couldn't be moved for much in return and Rudy Gay still can't give you consistent, positive performance.

It's most likely gonna be another ty year for the Spurs. But hey, they'll wear those sherbet-colored, alternate uniforms on occasion to make some fans happy I guess.

Yes, going to be a rough season

[rastaspur]

Jonathan Simmons is another one. Added freedom allowed him to become an all star.

Fake news. He was never an all star. Was in the rising stars game.

His best year was a 14 point a game season of chucking with the magic.

All star my ass.

[rankingtear]

It's lonely in the DJ sniffer island it's me , talkspurs and i think poopbox. When Lonnie has a bad game it's pop's fault when DJ has a good game bench or trade him.

[Dejounte]

But I'm tired of his decision making being so slow after so long. It's like you can tell the gears are turning but it takes too long. I'm tired of his indecision with the ball. Whether to drive, whether to pull up for three, whether to go for the midrange. There's stutters when he has to act like a glitch in the matrix. When he decides to drive, it's fine. When he decides to shoot three, it's fine as far as the choice goes. Same for the mid-range pull-up. But he has such problems making those quick decisions that it's really grating on me.

All fair points from last season. I just disagree that everything you list here was evident in last night's game and the game before. Of course, I take into consideration of his past play and if I notice the same errors I'll go, "Same old DJ". It just wasn't there for me (for MOST of his minutes).

I think it's why he looks better with White when White handles the ball, because it takes some of the burden of choice from Murray and he can just act. Otherwise he has the ball and he doesn't just have to make decisions on his own game, he also has to worry about Aldridge who pouts when he doesn't get the ball when and where he likes it, he has DeRozan wanting the ball, he has Gay getting rebounds and deciding he's point-Rudy ... just better to have White in charge and Murray can be freed to play off of him in ways he isn't without White there.

Everyone looks better when White is on the floor with them. I think everyone is trying to peg Murray into a square hole when he's a round circle. He can excel as a guard if he continues to focus on driving to the basket and does less "probing", as Pop said last night. "Less probing" actually addresses your point of him having to do less thinking.

But it's been 4+ years and he still doesn't have the decisiveness I thought he'd have by now. He still has the same poor ball handling where I think he got straight ripped by Cousins twice the other night. And I appreciate that Cousins has usually been good with steals and I like that Murray did a rip right back on the second one, but I am through anticipating a breakthrough. It could still happen, I hope it does and for the Spurs sake I hope it does, but I'm not counting on it. I have no confidence in him.

Turnovers/ poor ball handling are a valid critique, but then again Cousins was stripping everybody in game 2, including Lonnie. I understand your lack of confidence in him, he was frustrating as last season. I guess I'm quicker to give people a blank slate at the start of each season.

[DavidTheGoliath]

It's lonely in the DJ sniffer island it's me , talkspurs and i think poopbox. When Lonnie has a bad game it's pop's fault when DJ has a good game bench or trade him.

Well apparently here on ST, when someone sucks it pops fault for misusing the guy.

[Dejounte]

When I put addition by subtraction, I mean it.

IF, and it's only an IF, Pop won't start small with DDR at PF because he's worried about DeMar holding up or staying healthy or whatever, then that's a problem. Should White and Johnson come back and then it's a smallball line-up then no problem.

But I'm not so naive to think that Pop can't screw up. And at that point options can be on the table to reduce that problem. If Pop won't play DDR at PF, then swap DDR for someone who Pop would play at PF. Leaving time and opportunity for White, Murray, Vassell, Johnson, and Walker at the 1-3 spots.

Getting players out of the way so Pop can't play them, overplay them, or use them incorrectly I think works. Look at Vassell right now. Where would he be if Forbes was back and had a 3 year deal instead of 2? If Marco had a 3 year deal instead of 2?

So it's just an exercise in thinking out loud and putting thoughts on a board. It's nothing too serious, just a thought exercise.

For one, I just don't think trading DDR for a PF is the right approach. Trading a PF (or C) for a PF makes more sense. I highly doubt any newly acquired PF will play over the current bigs we have on the roster, whereas if it was Aldridge, Lyles, Gay traded for a PF, then I don't see that new PF having any obstacles ahead of him on the roster.

I disagree that it's DeMar who will block minutes for the young guys. It's small ball era and we can find minutes for our guards and wings, it's the slow and lumbering bigs we have who need to be put aside.

I think it's unfair to say that Pop wasn't involved in the decision-making of letting Bryn and Marco go. It's popular to hate on Pop, but it's conjecture to believe he's not involved in the good things this organization does.

[Atl Spur]

DDR/Murray/Lyles for Griffin/Bey/draft pick. Think it’s a good deal for both teams.

Not bad����

[Atl Spur]

Lonnie has time but he needs to get his head out, Vassell May be his blessing in disguise! Pop should start Vassell and Lonnie become the sixth man.....less stress & expectation.

[rankingtear]

All fair points from last season. I just disagree that everything you list here was evident in last night's game and the game before. Of course, I take into consideration of his past play and if I notice the same errors I'll go, "Same old DJ". It just wasn't there for me (for MOST of his minutes).

Same. My arm chair gm assessment

Game 1 : improved DJ 3rd quarter
Game 2 : improved DJ first half
Game 3 : improved DJ whole game

[Dejounte]

Same. My arm chair gm assessment

Game 1 : improved DJ 3rd quarter
Game 2 : improved DJ first half
Game 3 : improved DJ whole game

And to throw a bone to DJ haters:

If he continues to have "terrible" nights like last night with a stat line of 17-10-4, then that should raise his trade value around the league.

I just don't understand why people are complaining about the kid.

[Dex]

And to throw a bone to DJ haters:

If he continues to have "terrible" nights like last night with a stat line of 17-10-4, then that should raise his trade value around the league.

I just don't understand why people are complaining about the kid.

17 points on 17 shots isn't much to write home about. Neither is a team-high four turnovers for your starting "point guard".

DJ has always been a solid rebounder and that should continue, but he's coming into his third year (not counting the one he missed due to injury) and he still doesn't seem to have any idea how to run the offense. He's terrible on the fast break unless he is trying to call his on number, he dribbles into traffic and gets himself stuck, and made several boneheaded passes last night specifically for that reason.

I think Murray still has potential to be used in other ways, but being our starting point guard ain't it unless he magically grows a basketball brain.

[lefty]

team, Vassell is gonna bolt

[Dejounte]

17 points on 17 shots isn't much to write home about. Neither is a team-high four turnovers for your starting "point guard".

DJ has always been a solid rebounder and that should continue, but he's coming into his third year (not counting the one he missed due to injury) and he still doesn't seem to have any idea how to run the offense. He's terrible on the fast break unless he is trying to call his on number, he dribbles into traffic and gets himself stuck, and made several boneheaded passes last night specifically for that reason.

I think Murray still has potential to be used in other ways, but being our starting point guard ain't it unless he magically grows a basketball brain.

I don't know how much you can do when you're a starting point guard, and your starting shooting guard shoots only twice in 28 minutes and your starting center goes 3-12 FG for the game.

DJ had to play aggressive, maybe too aggressive (which led to a couple missed shots and turnovers), as a result of his passive teammates.

[KobesAchilles]

come back White! Come back!

[jjspur]

I've had a very similar trade idea in mind, however DDR, Murray, and Lyles make about 45 mil. Griffin and Bey only about 37. Not sure it would work under cap rules. I'd rather Aldridge, Rudy and a second for Griffin and Bey. Rudy has come ready to play this year unlike Aldridge.

[Chomag]

Honestly for me I think we have some players that can keep us compe ive even as young as they are, but the problem is we have way to much dead weight and players on this team that our Head coach likes to play bringing them down. It's just to much for them to overcome.

When it all comes down to it there is only 3-4 players on this team worth a damn and I'm pretty sure y'all know who they are.

[Seventyniner]

Also, you must be be on drugs if you believe we would go after a player who does these kinds of antics. Not only that, he also ing sucks and is an empty stat stuffer.

To also mention DeMar as the one to be traded for him is absurd. DeMar isn't the one hurting the team right now.

Tired of all these out of nowhere comments. Judge the team fairly. Criticism is fine when it's honest (and I've seen good ones).

imo the idea is that if next year's cap space isn't worth using on that FA class, the other way to "use" it is to ship out an expiring vet for a bad contract plus assets.

That said, I don't like a DDR/Griffin deal. Mainly because Griffin sucked last year and his contract only runs one season longer than DDR's. That's little enough that Detroit probably won't attach premium assets (their longer-term cap situation isn't all that bad). That destroys the Spurs' 2021 cap space for little, if any, return because (imo again) DDR is a better player than Griffin right now.

[rjv]

spot on with the grades. as to the vets, the only excuse i'll offer is that vets tend to sleepwalk through the preseason and i do expect them to be better in the regular season, but how much better is the question. LMA looked absolutely disinterested last night. murray, imo, can be a decent role player for the spurs but only at the 2 guard -and his game depends on the health of white, as much as anyone else on this team, probably more so. walker is lost, plain and simple and i wonder if he feels vassell breathing down his back. when keldon and white return, i'd much rather see vassell than a timid lonnie. eubanks has looked better than poeltl so far. mills is resilient but i'm going to expect a lot of inconsistency from him. he's also going to miss white.

[rjv]

as to the injuries to johnson and white and their delayed starts to the season, the positives are that vassell will get more PT. this season is about seeing which of the young players are going to be the foundation and that will at least allow vassell a chance to get some serious minutes. also, the spurs records will certainly suffer, as a result of their two best younger players' absence. in the end, perhaps this means a slightly higher lottery pick. and, as we all know, the spurs future is going to be predicated upon the draft, and perhaps a couple of solid (not spectacular) FA signings.

[Sugus]

The NBA season is an up-and-down season. It's exactly why I try to refrain from being too negative or too positive because later on these posts could look really stupid. I've watched the NBA for decades to learn that you don't close the book on something this early on, especially when it's preseason. I guess it's easier to weed out the wiser posters than the foolish ones. Maybe it's all just part of being a message board, and it's a given to see people write impulse-driven posts.

Yet people will read this post and later on say, "HA, you're an idiot for believing in the team early in the season." As if it's some type of accomplishment for posters like me (who try to stay neutral) to be wrong.

What?? You mean I shouldn't rush to post trade ideas for Lonnie after a bad pre-season game?? You sniffer!!!

Now seriously, I agree. I'm entirely holding out judgment on this team until both White and Keldon are on it, preferrably on the SL. No matter the salaries, the "star" status', it's clear to those who watch the games that these two players are most important to the Spurs' cohesiveness and good play on both ends of the court. I wonder how much time it'll take Pop to realize this. In the meantime, at least watching Vassell get good minutes and be productive with them is a great sign.

To anyone who hasn't already: brace yourself for an up-and-down, bumpy, likely losing season. Tempering expectations is key here. We're rebuilding... And we're gonna play like a rebuilding team. Next off-season will be pivotal for the Spurs, we'll see what the team does then. I do hope they re-sign White right now, though, before he breaks out. Anyone know what's the deadline for that?

[Prime BEEF]

I've had a very similar trade idea in mind, however DDR, Murray, and Lyles make about 45 mil. Griffin and Bey only about 37. Not sure it would work under cap rules. I'd rather Aldridge, Rudy and a second for Griffin and Bey. Rudy has come ready to play this year unlike Aldridge.

Griffin and bey is $39.5M. Works in the trade machine. Not that that’s exactly indicative of real life though.

Casey and DDRs relationship from Toronto would be the big driver in this trade...and also their need for a solid guard. Detroit thinks Murray is a solid guard (doesn’t matter that some here don’t). Casey getting his guy and a young guard works for them. They in no way would be excited about getting gay and LMA. It works money wise and it’s players we would like to get rid of but from Detroit’s perspective they would say no to gay and LMA.

Celtics, warriors, trailblazers and maybe Chicago might be interested in a LMA/Gay package