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Hey, if Manu's flopping create a turnover for the opposition and creates a change of possession - I'm all for it.
LET ME TYPE REAL LOUD SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.
HE SAID, HE WANTED BARBOSA TO LEARN TO STOP CRYING, NUT IT UP AND JUST PLAY BALL.
HIS POINT WAS DIRECTLY ON SUBJECT. IT IS YOURS THAT IS A CHEAP INSULT AND OFF SUBJECT.
Hey, if Manu's flopping create a turnover for the opposition and creates a change of possession - I'm all for it.
You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.
As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.
One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense.
once again,
if Ginobili were a Piston or a Suns, this discussion would be moot.
Once again, Kurt Thomas flops just as much, as does Ben Wallace.
Man was I suprised to see the post above was from a Piston's fan. What a laugh. A fan of the Bad Boys crying about Manu abusing teams with flops.You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.
As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.
One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense.
Lindsey Hunter learned his flopping from Derick Fish-out-of-water, and you cry about Manu. You are a riot!
The denial is very strong on this board.
Let's make this very simple for the people that can't see because they got their homer glasses on.
Do we all agree that manu tends to flop? Yes we do, nobody here can deny that.
Do we all agree the suns player got hurt by manu? yes we do.
Do we all agree that it wasnt intentional? yes we do
Is it possible that manu could have exaggerated the contact on the play? yes, its quite possible.
How ing hard is that to understand. NOBODY is above criticism , and having their play analyzed. Not Duncan, not shaq, not anybody.
You must be new to the game. Drawing fouls is paramont to knowing how to play defense. If a player has good defensive footwork, he owes it to his team to use his skills to place himself into position to draw contact from off balance or over agressive offensive players. Manu is guilty of doing both of the above.
As for you assertion that most of Manu's flopping comes at the defensive end, that "charge" is unique. Most of the cries from Karl, Nugget fans and Suns fans came from Manu selling contact he recieved as he played offense.
One question Suns fan. Have you ever seen a Suns player hit the floor while trying to draw a charge? Nevermind, I almost forgot. When I flashed back to last years WCF's I remember; the Suns and aparantly Suns fans don't know jack about playing defense.
Must you address people with such condescending talk like "you must be new to the game" or "anyone who really knows basketball." You know so much about basketball, shouldn't you be on an NBA coaching staff?
People have opinions. If you disagree, fine. You know, even if you think you know about the rules of basketball and the game in general, you might be wrong sometimes. A lot of Spurs fans here are great and knowledgeable fans. The arrogant, self-stroking egoists like you who have to make themselves feel better by talking down to people really stink up the joint.
Are you new to debating?
Your contention that drawing fouls is paramount to playing defense HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FLOPPING. Someone can draw a charge or play very good defense WITHOUT flopping. Why you spent a whole paragraph of irrelevant justification over drawing fouls when the topic was flopping is beyond me.
I don't have much of a problem if Manu exaggerates on the offensive side to try to get a foul. It's when he's barely touched on defense and drops straight to the ground that I think is unnecessary. I thought the foul he tried to draw on Amare Stoudemire last year in the playoffs when Amare tried to shrug him off, didn't touch him, and Manu dropped like he'd just been hit by an uppercut punch are the type of flopping that annoys me as a basketball fan in general. But, if Manu tries to create contact when he attacks the rim and exaggerates a little bit to get a call, I have no problem with that. When a player attacks the rim like he does and takes the hits he takes, I think he should get the benefit of the doubt most of the time. Again, it's the flopping on the defensive side or even in loose ball situations that takes away from how good of a player Manu is, in my opinion.
I didn't see Lindsey Hunter flop too much. I'd be upset if he did. Lindsey uses his feet and quick hands to play defense. If and when he flops, I'll be the first one to say it was a flop.
Who else on the Pistons flop?
Ben had one flop against a Tony Parker drive in last year's finals. But, as has intimated, Ben doesn't get that call if he just stands there and let's Tony bounce off of him. So, you play within the gamesmanship of the sport ... TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. Manu often takes it a step further.
It's funny to me that most Spurs fans can't take honest, constructive criticism. To be honest, Manu Ginobili is one of my favorite players. I think he's amazing. But, I'm going to call a duck a duck. He's a flopper.
Flopping: Exaggerating teh effect of physical contact to ensure a foul call.
By definition, a FLOP can't hurt someone. A FLOP is simply exaggerating the effect, not creating any contact.
If Barbosa wants to complain about someone (and I think he's stupid to do so - he plays basketball for cripe's sake. If you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen) then he should complain about his own teammate, Raja Bell, who DOES, BTW, have a history of trying to hurt people when he plays.
so then you are cool with it if another player does it. (again...just asking)samikeyp,
Manu. Using the logic that it's ok to flop since he gets hit so much and doesn't get fouls. The equilibrium, things-work-out-even, two-wrongs-make-a-right argument. I don't think it should be a justifiable rationale.
Pot calls kettle black. Go back and read some of your posts.
Good advice for us all. Including JamStone.
Yeah, that runs pretty rampant among NBA fans of all flavors, even Pistons fans. It's funny to me that when one disagrees with you, they "can't take constructive criticism".
See your own advice above. Just agree to disagree. Just because we are not parrotting you does not mean we are wrong. It just means we don't agree with you.
Nope. In general, I don't like flopping, no matter who does it. I understand if a player exaggerates somewhat in order to get a call. But, what I truly abhor is if a player is hardly even hit or touched and that players flies across the floor like he's been drop-kicked. That is what really is annoying.
Exaggeration is understandable. My idea or definition of flopping is the extreme variation of that.
I'd be happy to. Point out which ones you are referring to where I am condescending and talk down to people. I'd be more than agreeable to read them and insert my foot in my mouth if you are correct.
Like the time Duncan landed on Sheed's foot and sprained his ankle?
There was thousands of angry fans who complaiined that day
Oh please! Suns fans are simply angry and bitter at having lost one of their key players and having lost the game. Manu flops, yes. WHO GIVES A !? Whoever blames that accident on Manu's flopping is a complete idiot. That scenario could have happened in a million different ways. Basically this is whats going on here 1) Suns fans are frustrated at having lost one of the key players, and yet another game 2) Suns fans hate how Manu used his flopping to own them all throughout last playoffs 3)Suns fans are using this accident as an excuse to complain about Manu's flopping because they are bitter about both Saturday's loss and last playoffs loss, when in reality Manu's flopping is beside the point!
So does Manu exaggerate contact or does he flop? I'd say that what he does most of the time is exaggerate. I'm sure there are a (relatively small) number of instances where he has been hardly hit and flown across the floor like he was drop-kicked. But usually, there's at least some kind of reasonable contact that initiates it.
Take Saturday night, for instance. Manu took an elbow and fell to the court. That isn't the kind of stuff you see Vlade Divac pull all the time, the extreme variation we would probably all agree to call "flopping."
I'm not sure if I'm just biased because Manu is the second-coming or whatever, but I hardly ever see him doing the outrageous type of flopping that you have distinguished. Exaggerating to get calls (on both offense and defense): yes. Extreme histrionics: no.
Well, I listed some below. If you can't see the condescension in your posts, it probably won't help to have someone point it out to you.
Good God.
Between D'Antoni, their owner, Marion, and Barbosa, Phoenix has become nothing but a glorified version of the Vagina Monologs.
Perhaps you need to change your glasses or at least quit kissing up to the visitors while not clearly conveying the rest of the facts of the thread.
I have seen few Spurs fans who would disagree with most of what you expressed. However, you or other Spurs fans who pacify outsiders who say things like Manu flops more than any player in history, are either ignorant to Manu's game or simply doing your own flopping, just to kiss up to visitors.
If visitors came in and said what you infer they have said, few would have trouble with it, even if it is not the whole truth. Few Spurs fans here would dispute, Manu does sell contact. It is part of the game, and part of his game that he is good at. However, the real truth is; Manu's unique contortionist ability and uncanny instincts, combined with lack of perception and/or frustration of most fans, lead more to Manu's reputation as a flopper, more than anything he does on the court.
Watch some film in very slow motion, and learn how Manu uses his unique flexability to get into seams on offense, and uncanny instinct to cut off players on defense to draw much more contact than most players are capible of. When other players are frustrated by Manu, it is for a reason. It is because they don't have a clue to where he is going, or where he will be.
Quit flopping to visiting fans! Watch the film, and learn to speak the truth about the amazing Manu!
Apparently to you saying "most people can't take honest constructive criticism" equates to condescending talk. Ok. We have a major difference of opinion there then.
You know what? I'm done with it. I already knew we have a major difference of opinion. That's what I said to you.
Fight on!
Edit:
I'm done with YOU on this matter. I reserve the right to comment on others' posts in this thread.
Last edited by pache100; 11-21-2005 at 03:25 PM.
Agreed. If Manu just cut out the extreme stuff, I would be cool with it. No reason to get upset at a little over-exaggeration. But, the extreme stuff, yes, that's annoying.
Like the time Duncan landed on Sheed's foot and sprained his ankle?
There was thousands of angry fans who complaiined that day
No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.
Not only was there no intent, there was nothing unnecessary that was done that could have likely avoided the sprain.
Had Manu not flopped, the injury to Barbosa could have likely been avoided. I think that's the difference.
Some people did complain actually. It was unfounded and dismissed but it did happen.No one complained because there was nothing to complain about.
That was baseless and stupid just as the implication that Ginobili did it on purpose is baseless and stupid.
He "flopped" and hurt someone. IMO, happens.
It just figures its Manu doing it.
The guy travels....ALOT...and its never called. It has to be embarassing for refs to watch game-tape.
I wish I could show you all what I mean, because this next explanation might not be the greatest...
Its the NBA...youre basically allowed 2 steps to the basket. this can be done LEGALLY 2 ways.
a) [pick up ball]...Left foot....jump off right foot...layup/dunk/shot
b) [pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet...jump for dunk/layup/shot
Manu on the other hand, exploits this rule, doing this ALOT
[pick up ball]...left foot....land on both feet....pivot on pivot foot...leap off the non-pivot foot for dunk/layup/shot
Thats a travel. Its small, but its an explotation IMO. I can hear the argument already..."well, everyone else should do it then!" No, they shouldnt. The NBA is already ridiculed enough for the players lack of fundamental skills (except TD...dude is amazing). Youve got high school kids playing in a man's league with minimal idea on how to navigate an NBA-calibre defense.
Manu....is....awesome. No doubt. He single-handedly stole game 7 down the stretch. For that performance alone, it is my opinion he should have won Finals MVP. But it does not mitigate his traveling / flopping. It makes liking him very difficult for me. But that me, and I dont matter.
I think this is where this thread was heading / hijacked. Wasnt so much about "whoever-his-name-is" getting hurt. More about Manu and his soccer-like embelishment antics. If his game becomes accepted, we will be a few years from players falling on the ground screaming like theyve been shot for calls, only to get up and smile. Its disgusting.
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