Best Backcourt

[JamStone]

No, I agree with z0sa.

I applaud Rip's defensive skills, his never ending cycle of picks and rubs to get free for a good shot.

But throughout Rip's career, he has never been seen as one who can create for others. He might make the occasional pass to victory, normally to Billups but he hasn't clearly established a penchant for finding ways to contribute besides his solid play at D and money jumpshot.

Last season, Rip averaged 4.9 asists per game ... Manu averaged 3.9 asists per game. To say that Rip cannot create for others is to pigeonhold him into a stereotype of your own perception of him based on what you have seen from time to time. His primary focus has always been to score first. It's one of the major responsibilities for a "shooting" guard. And, with a point guard who is able to create, you can understand better why Rip focuses more on scoring. With Manu, he has taken the responsibility of creating for others more than Rip does because his point guard, Parker, focuses on scoring more than creating for others. It's a product of the system and the pieces you have around you.

Ginobili has a large portfolio of making all teams that he has played for better. Every team he's been on, he has won at the top for every one.

Rip led UConn to an NCAA championship. Rip was the MOP of that tournament in 1999. And, he made plenty of clutch shots during that tournament run. Manu is phenomenal, but I don't know if you can make the distinction between him and Rip by saying that Manu wins at every level.

It's just that he'll never look to call his own number 1st. He'll go through the play and then go with what he feels is the best choice. More times than not, it'll be a pass to the correct guy but even when he is forced to shoot, he makes more of those than he misses.

So again, props to Rip, but Manu has the ability to take his game to a whole 'nother level when the situation calls for it.

Since most of you Spurs fans concentrate on the Western Conference, perhaps you have not seen as many Pistons games in the playoffs until the finals. In 2004, Rip took his game to a "whole 'nother level" against the Indiana Pacers in the ECF that year. When the Pistons and Pacers were playing games in the 70s, Rip was one of the few players that was consistently putting the basketball in the hole. Had it not been for Chauncey's great series against the Lakers, Rip probably would have been the MVP of the Finals that year. Rip made plenty of "clutch plays" in that 2004 post season. He made a virtual game-winning shot against Jason Kidd in the Nets series. He took over in the Indiana series, and even drew the flagrant foul on Ron Artest that, along with the Prince block on Reggie, turned the tide of that series.


Manu Ginobili is unbelievable. I don't think many would disagree with that notion. But, I think some of you severely underestimate Rip Hamilton as a big time player in clutch situations. The fact that Rip is not a traditional one-on-one scorer who can take anyone off the dribble does not deny the fact that he can make big plays in important situations. I know the cliche and overused comparison, but Reggie Miller did not create for others and did not have great one-on-one skills, but no one would deny that he would make the big play in the clutch. It just happened to usually be a 3-pointer. Rip is much the same way that it is usually a midrange shot off of a curl screen. Two points is two points, whether you crossover and make a reverse lay-up avoiding a shot blocker or if you come off of a screen and can a 15 foot jumper. It counts the same. And, in pressure situations, both are of equal value.

[JamStone]

What I'm saying here is that you can't call on Rip for every late game situation. If a team makes a point to stop him, they can. He can't make his own shot. Thats what I mean by hes a good scorer when the pressure isn't on. When teams try to defend him during the course of the game with him running around screens and curls and whatnot, usually his man gets bumped off and hes free for the open shot. But if its late and Rip is curling around a screen, teams will help on D and hes either denied the pass or forced into a bad shot - Rip has never been known as a clutch passer.

If Rip is stoppable, teams would make it a point to stop him as much as possible. That not being the case, Rip is averaging over 20 ppg on over 50% shooting, most of which are jumpers. Rip has made big shots in the playoffs against good defenses. He even had one of his best series against Ron Artest and the Indiana Pacers in the 2004 ECF. Bruce Bowen happens to guard Rip better than anyone else in the league. Is there really shame in that? Does that really mean Rip can't score when the pressure is on? Ever heard of the NCAA tournament for men's college basketball? No pressure there. How about the NBA finals? No pressure?

Rip might not be a clutch passer. But, he hasn't really been asked to do that. Pretty hard to create for others when the point guard has the basketball in his hands at the end of games. Chauncey is so good at the end of games that Rip isn't generally asked to create for others. Chauncey will either shoot or pass. Rip is usually the first or second option to SHOOT the basketball, not pass. And, Rip is so good at coming off screens, that he generally gets a decent look at a jumper, so he does NOT need to pass the ball when he gets it.

Now, Manu you can give the ball, let him run down the shot clock (if necessary), and then let him make his move, drawing the defense in for a pass to an open man or allowing Manu at least an alright look at the basket. I'm not saying so much that neither is clutch, its just more like Manu is so more able to produce in the clutch, both defensively and offensively. To me, Rip is too one-dimensional and while hes the best at his game of running on screens, he CAN be stopped. Manu its a whole different story.

The way you describe Manu applies to Chauncey Billups for the Pistons. He is given the ball at the top of the key at the end of close games. He either shoots or creates a shot for someone else. Given opportunities, Rip has done pretty well himself in scoring baskets in PRESSURE situations. I'm guessing you don't watch too many Pistons games to know that. But, it's very much true. As for Manu producing in the clutch defensively, ummm ok. He's a great player and works hard at both ends of the court. And, he's just as likely to make a great steal as he is to make a big shot. I wouldn't deny that. I wouldn't deny that Manu is better defensively than Rip. But, late in the game, the Spurs call on Bruce Bowen and Tim Duncan to make the necessary stops at the defensive end ... just like the Pistons call on Tayshaun Prince and Ben Wallace to do. Rip is not the best defender in the game at his position. But, late in games when the game is on the line and the Pistons need to make a stop, he is often in the game. He is not a liability on defense as perhaps your post might implicitly suggest.


Is Manu more clutch than Rip? Probably. But, I greatly disagree with the notion that Rip cannot score when the pressure is on or that he can be stopped by any team. That is a false conclusion based loosely on your opinion because of what you have seen in games between the Pistons and Spurs. Bruce has been great against Rip. But, don't believe for a minute that Bruce could stop Rip EVERY single time or that Rip is not clutch under pressure. It would be a misconception.

[Phenomanul]

Good assessment JamStone

[ShoogarBear]

I know the cliche and overused comparison, but Reggie Miller did not create for others and did not have great one-on-one skills, but no one would deny that he would make the big play in the clutch.

Precisely.

The problem is that a lot of people in this forum have no objectivity when it comes to anything involving Manu. He's got to be the best at it and nobody else can dare to compare with him.

Rip and Chauncey are both clutch. I don't feel good when the ball is in either one of their hands and the clock is winding down.

[z0sa]

I agree Rip is clutch, and I never said ANY team could stop him - I think most teams can't stop him no matter how hard they try! But come playoff time, which is what I've been focusing on if you read my earlier posts, Rip is just not the same clutch player that Manu is. This has nothing to do with Chauncey or Parker, it has to do with who makes the big basket or pass in crunchtime. If there was no Chauncey could you call on Rip like we call on Manu?

Now I said earlier Rip has raised his assists and is definitely making the extra pass - but like I said, is he known to be a clutch passer? But really - after tonights show from Manu (whos still partially injured), I really don't feel like comparing the two anymore ... not that Manu is out of Rip's league or vice versa, just they are both two different players who use different methods to score. I just think Manu is the more clutch of the two thanks to better court vision and an adept ability to get to the basket and make big plays.

[Rummpd]

All four of these players are great and any combination of Parker - Ginobili, Parker - Hamilton, Billups - Hamilton or Billups - Ginobili (my favorite) would still keep either team very strong.


Apples to oranges.