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People say that all the time. I don't know if it's true. I don't think they'd be great defensively without Bruce. And I don't want to find out.
Since he rarely misses games, it's harder to judge his impact - you'd be surprised at the Spurs' record without him.If Bruce Bowen wasn't on the Spurs, they'd still be a great defensive team. Timmy is the anchor, and Pop most importantly it's a great defensive system.
People say that all the time. I don't know if it's true. I don't think they'd be great defensively without Bruce. And I don't want to find out.
Yea, I hear ya. I think Bowen could have arguably been the Finals MVP last year. He took pretty much whoever he was on out of the game entirely. But I still think they have a good enough system to still be a great defensive team without Bruce.
BTW, I just noticed this: http://www.82games.com/0506/05SAS9D.HTM
Would there be any explanation for that? It says the Spurs D is actually worse when Bruce is on the floor. Every other year with the spurs it has been the other way around.
Example: when the Spurs play the Lakers, Bowen is only on the floor when Kobe is.Would there be any explanation for that? It says the Spurs D is actually worse when Bruce is on the floor.
But yes, it's also a reflection of Tim's diminished mobility this season.
I think it was... all I remember is Ron taking a flagrant on Hamilton late in the last game of the series. Even after a great year this guy still managed to hurt his team by losing control at the absolute worst time.
Also Bowen is usually the starter that stays in the game with the scrubs when the game is already decided. That's probably a big part of it.
Yeah, I think I remember that Rip was repeatedly blowing by him, so Artest just clotheslined him in the throat. (But maybe my memory is cloudy).I think it was... all I remember is Ron taking a flagrant on Hamilton late in the last game of the series. Even after a great year this guy still managed to hurt his team by losing control at the absolute worst time.
No, you're right. I think Rip gave him a forearm to the balls if I remember correctly...
ahh, that's true. I guess now, Pop brings in Finley or Barry or whoever when the stars go to the bench. Makes sense.
Still, Ben's numbers don't lie...
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
On Court: 101.2
Off Court: 110.4
Differential: -9.3
That is a HUGE difference. Close enough to the best defensive team in the league when he's on the floor and worst when he's off. If it weren't for Seattle being statistically the worst defensive team in the history it would be real close.
Last edited by FreshPrince22; 04-14-2006 at 02:02 AM.
I certainly hope Artest doesn't commit any flagrants against the Spurs (thinking about Manu) during the first round. I know he will eventually flip out again, I just hope it is not with our team.
Bruce deserves this award this year. You guys are right that Ben is the lazy choice. His numbers are actually lower this year than last year. His team is no longer in the top 10 in opponent FG% this year (Spurs are #3).
Bruce always has to guard the top player in every team, including the big guys, like dirk. Ben normally stays on the low post so he can bar entrance or grab rebounds.
Yes, Bruce deserves it. I hope he gets it. But some writers will vote based on history, reputation, hype and visability.
I have a feeling that Wallace is gonna win the DOP and Ron Artest will come in second.
The amount of unquantifable things in Ben Wallace's game is just as high. For instance, how many shots does Wallace change? How much room does he create for Rip on an open shot? How many times does he pressure the ball in backcourt, pick up a guard on the perimeter, deny a cutter from entering the lane, seal off defenders in transition to create greater numbers for the Pistons? Is there a way to quantify how he shows hard on a pick-and-pop and is able to find his man before the guard coming off the screen has enough time to find him?
I'm not discrediting Bowen, he's got my vote. I've never seen someone give Rip more trouble or create more havoc by his mere presence on the perimeter. But don't get lost in the Ben Wallace numbers; he is just as dominant in areas we have yet to quantify in basketball.
They were arm-locked and just like Reggie, he started pushing off on Artest to create momentum to break free. He missed all of Artest's arms and chest and ended up hitting him in the balls. Artest didn't grimmace in pain for fall to the ground. He followed Rip into the paint (this happened in the left corner) and then put a forearm into Rip's nose.
The entire incident caused the Pistons to go on a 10-4 run to end the game, or something like that. Rip had to be restrained by his teammates because he was talking so much junk. Let's remember this is an intentional hit to a portion of Rip's body that had been broken 3 times in one season. The initial hit doesn't look intentional, but we can never know what a man in thinking.
I was pissed that the entire thing was left out of the Championship video. Rip was on the ground for a good 3-4 minutes. It sparked an offensive resurgence in a rattled team, and was motivation for the Pistons to end the series that night. It was rather important, as important as Tayshaun's block. That's when I was reminded that the NBA tends to protect its talents.
I hope Bruce wins it but it will be tough to overcome the great season Ben had this year. I took a double take at Wallace's stat line.
No contest. There is nobody else. Bowenn will take the award.
What he did his year was awesome and I do not see Kirilenko or Wallace take the award.
I can even bet on that one.
ps. Am I in the concept of this thread?
Bruce deserves it! However, I don't think he's the kinda guy who'd care too much whether he gets it or not.He's priceless for us, he plays every game and locks down the best perimeter player of any team we play, so we know and appreciate him. And he knows all spurs fans do.I'm sure that's much more important for him.
He's also a great team player.We play, win and lose as a team, and that's a concept known to spurs and pistons fans only. So I don't care about what others think.
WE KNOW!
I want Bruce to win but if Ben won, I would be cool with that.
I absolutely agree. Stats will never truly indicate all the work Ben does for us...........BUT....some of his work does equate into trackable stats, whereas NOTHING that Bowen does shows up on a boxscore.
I think another aspect is that if Ben has a big block, or a large rebound night, it shows up on ESPN as part of the high light reel. While very little if anything of Bowens performance is shown as it's not as flashy as a block party, or a 20 rebound performance.
Last edited by Pistons < Spurs; 04-14-2006 at 08:16 AM.
I would vote for Bruce Bowen.
But, I don't agree with the notion that Bruce should win the DPOY because he hasn't won it in the past. If Bruce wins the award, he should win because of what he's done this season, and this season alone. I don't buy the argument that what Bruce does is as important as what Ben does so Ben shouldn't have 3 more DPOY awards. That's all irrational thinking. The DPOY award should be given to the player who was the best defender during the course of the regular season.
Ben simply has not been as good a defender as he has been in the past. But, that does not mean he isn't the best defender in the league still. Even with down stats, Ben is arguably the most important and best defender in the league. Just like you can't give the award to Bruce because he's been snubbed in past years, you can't not give it to Ben because his stats aren't as good as his stats in other seasons. You compare with the rest of the league, not with the player's previous seasons.
I think Bruce has done more defensively to help his team win this year. That's why my vote would go to him. Not because he should have won it another season or because Ben already has three of them.
NOTE: If you look at stats to support an argument for DPOY, Shawn Marion has had a pretty impressive defensive season.
Shawn Marion
11.9 rpg (#3 in the league)
8.8 defensive rpg (#4 in the league)
1.99 spg (#5 in the league)
1.71 bpg (#17 in the league)
Take into account he's been playing power forward all season long at his size, and those numbers are even more impressive. The problem is that his team does not play very good team defense and all of his numbers are bloated because of the extra possessions the uptempo style of Phoenix has.
But, if there were a darkhorse candidate for DPOY, it might be Marion. Funny, because he could be considered a darkhorse candidate for MVP as well.
Ben is going to get it mark it down.
Bruce abosolutely.
While Ben's value to the Detroit defensive philosophy and his greatness as defensive player are well-chronicled, I think people ignore, take for granted or simply don't realize how difficult and yet significant Bruce's contributions are to the Spurs success.
He ALWAYS takes the opposition's best scorer. Running through picks, fighting through double screens, keeping his hands visible, playing the weak side of the court in a zone setup, rebounding, contesting every single shot that goes up, blocking out and working to gain defensive position against bigger opponents. Let's also not forget all the hours of film study he puts in on each opponent he faces.
As such, I think Bruce's defensive responsibilities are quite a bit more difficult than that of a player who primarily defends the rim (a la Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning or a Ben Wallace) or a player that plays the passing lanes well (Gerald Wallace, Larry Hughes, Allen Iverson). He is a rare lockdown defender in every sense of the word.
As most people know, it's very tough to quantify what Bruce does in sheer statistics. Yet, he sometimes does have key critical moments that are noteworthy. Remember that stellar block on Chauncey Billups', last-second, 3-pt attempt in Game 7 of the NBA finals that basically sealed the game? How about his shutting down Dirk during the Spurs/Mavs regular season meeting back in March.
Furthermore, the dude never gets injured, never misses a game and has evolved from an offensive liability to a deadly 3-point shooter, with a decent midrange game.
Along with Artest, Wallace and perhaps Raja Bell, I doubt there's anyone in the league that puts in as much pride and effort toward playing defense. As much as Tim Duncan is the anchor of the Spurs defense, Bruce is certainly the engine that make the machine go.
He gets my overwhelming nod for DPOY.
heard of a guy named Camby?
cant leave him out of that group of guys.......he prides himself on D and it is one of the reasons he leads the league in blocked shots
I can leave him out if he misses a full quarter of the season.
No doubt. He's a wonderful player. Big defensive presence at and near the rim. He just stays hurt too much to seriously garner "strong" consideration for DPOY. I don't believe he's ever played a full season - similar to another former Nugget - Robert "Ice" Pack.heard of a guy named Camby?
cant leave him out of that group of guys.......he prides himself on D and it is one of the reasons he leads the league in blocked shots
Last edited by SenorSpur; 04-14-2006 at 02:57 PM.
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