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I finally figured it out. whottt and FWD are the same person, in one of those weird Fight Club situations.
Excellent selective reading -- I didn't discount his numbers against history. I agreed with you that Duncan's numbers weren't as good as Shaq's. That doesn't mean that I think they weren't epic numbers; that doesn't mean that I think that Duncan's performance was just some passing thing that didn't really mean much; that doesn't mean that I think Duncan's statistical performance wasn't historically significant. By your rationalization, if I said that Kobe's 81 weren't as good as Wilt's 100, you'd contend that I had discounted Kobe's numbers. Duncan's numbers weren't as good as Shaq's, but they were monsterously good (and, very nearly, uniquely good) in the context of NBA playoff history.
And I do think the moment was significant to Duncan's performance because it was a clincher.
Viola!! You have finally unraveled the point of my original post. Duncan's performance, which was nearly equal to Shaq's from a statistical standpoint and probably more significant in terms of its context, was relegated to a spot 10 behind Shaq's. Why is that? I think you've answered that question.
I finally figured it out. whottt and FWD are the same person, in one of those weird Fight Club situations.
I just don't know what you are arguing about...
I mean it's established that Shaq's was the better statistical performance.
It was against a better team.
It was against a better defender.
His team was behind in the series.
Hanging your entire argument on the fact that Duncan's was in a series clincher and Shaq's wasn't, isn't a lot to hang it on....it isn't anything to hang it on....the Sixers were a far better team.
You must have been a bully in school or something....it's like you consider it more impressive for a 10th grader to beat up a 1st grader in 5 minutes than you do for a 10th grader to beat up a 9th grader in 6 minutes...
That's essentially what you are arguing here.
So David ending his career with 13 points and 17 rebounds in a Finals clinching game doesn't matter? As you say, the Nets sucked and he was going against weak compe ion.
Damn and I always thought he ended his career in style. Should have gone for a triple double in a sweep.
Seeing as how it didn't even make the list...obviously not.
Damn and I always thought he ended his career in style. Should have gone for a triple double in a sweep.
Hey it's one of my favorite moments....but if I was trying to make some kind of halfbaked statistical/situational analysis, referred to by FWDT in this thread as a "moment", on why he deserves to be ranked higher...I'd lose the argument too, and rightly so.
Duncan's wasn't a bigger moment, statistically, memorably, or any other ly either...to anyone other than homer Spursfans.
Again, you miss my point. I'm completely comfortable with Duncan's effort being #47 -- you'll note that many of the "moments" on the list aren't just singular shots or plays, but are game-long performances. My quarrel is with Shaq's "moment," which is statistically better but cir stantially weaker, being ranked 10 places above Duncan's on a list of 60. If Shaq was 46 and Duncan 47, I'd have no problem with that.
Still waiting for you to prove why his was cir stantially weaker...seeing as how his was against a better team, defender, and his team was trailing in the series at the time....
Cue: Indeterminable, undefinable and highly subjective "Moment" spin....
Around and around we go...but when all the spinning has stopped...the word homer will still sum up your entire argument.
I didn't choose the word "moment," the NBA did. I'm simply playing by their rules.
In terms of moments, I think clinchers (when championships are won) trump mid-series games (such as a game that ties a series 1-1).
Does the last shot of a clincher trump a monsterous performance in Game 2? No. Does a monsterous statistical performance in a clincher top a slightly-better monsterous statistical performance in a Game 2? I think so.
You obviously disagree, based on your own indeterminable, undefinable, and highly subjective reasoning.
Fair enough.
It's probably fair to say that if the roles were reversed, Shaq would have been ranked higher.
False...
If it comes against a better team, a better opponent, and under more dire cir stances, not to mention has better statistical numbers, and is watched by more people, it qualifies as a bigger moment. If you can give me some kind of sensible argument to counter those largely objective points, I will concede that your silver and black goggles aren't completely hindering your vision.
Where are Kerr's 4 three pointers against Dallas in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF???
Last edited by hegamboa; 05-31-2006 at 06:45 PM.
Then how come Robert Horry's game 5 VS the Pistons last year is ranked higher?
I mean it's all about Shaq right?
Shaq's was the bigger moment, it came in a more impressive situation, and was watched by more people, therefore it is more memorable...9 or 10 spots more memorable in fact. Deal with it. There is absolutely no anti-Spurs/Pro Laker bias in that ranking...it's just simply that Shaq's was more memorable.
The "better defender" argument doesn't hold weight. A player's blocked shots are not determined by his defender. Arguably, neither are his assists. Those were the two stats that made Shaq and Duncan's lines stand out, moreso than the points and rebounds. Either of those players has a 20-20 game in the Finals and it's not really news.
Furthermore, the 2003 New Jersey Nets were a superior defensive team. Based on Defensive Efficiency, they were the best in the league in 2003. Philly was 5th in 2001.
Defense can be a factor in points, assists, and rebounds...
Shaq was being defended by the DPOY...
You need a new scale if that has no weight.
Next.
That's not a similar moment. There are clearly different categories of "moments" on this list... Great statistical games, great shots, great runs, great battles, etc. Comparing Horry's shot to Shaq or Duncan's game would be like comparing apples to Einstein's Theory of Relativity.Then how come Robert Horry's game 5 VS the Pistons last year is ranked higher?
But to humor you, if Shaq had hit that shot against the Pistons in Game 5 of an NBA Finals that went 7 games, he would have been even higher.
Then Duncan was being defended by the best Defensive Team in the league, which trumps your best single defender argument because it has more of an effect on assists and rebounds. Plus, it's not like either was being single covered.
Your turn.
Mutombo = Most Overrated Defender of All-Time
Individual post defender, maybe somewhat. As a shot blocker? Either way he is an excellent defender and extremely valulable on that end.
Sure....the Nets gave up an average of 1/4 of a point less per game that year than the Sixers in 01...But they didn't have Mutombo for the entire season, had they, it surely would have made the difference in terms of season PPG rankings...and furthermore...the Nets did not have the reigning DPOY defending their interior and to put on Duncan, like the Sixers did on Shaq.
Oh and you are the Karl Malone of the dynasty league...congrats.
Next.
Check yourself....
With a potential quad double in tow or without?That's not a similar moment. There are clearly different categories of "moments" on this list... Great statistical games, great shots, great runs, great battles, etc. Comparing Horry's shot to Shaq or Duncan's game would be like comparing apples to Einstein's Theory of Relativity.
But to humor you, if Shaq had hit that shot against the Pistons in Game 5 of an NBA Finals that went 7 games, he would have been even higher.
I am pretty sure that Shaq hit a game winner or two in the Lakers le runs...didn't get him rated higher than Horry...or Fisher come to think of it...and Fisher's wasn't against the Pistons in game 5 of an NBA finals that went 7 games...
Number 33!
Isn't anybody surprised this didn't make the cut???
No, because as huge and as clutch of a performance as that was, it isn't all that remembered outside of NBA fanatics or Spurs and Mavs fans. Too bad that a great performance like that fell between the cracks.
looks like whott has alot of time on his hands, he replies to his own posts
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