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  1. #51
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    However, what we have now is that one side is absolute evil and the other side absolute good. This works well to get elected, I suppose, but will never get to the root of the problem.

    Yep........ Portraying the other side as the bad guys only serves to keep the sheep in line..

    There are no sides here without innocent blood on their hands….

  2. #52
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    Here's a guy making a good point about the effect of Israel NOT smashing the out of Hezbollah.

    =====================

    July 30, 2006

    Op-Ed Columnist

    Cease-Fire to Nowhere

    By DAVID BROOKS

    There are victory markers strewn across southern Lebanon commemorating the last time Israel withdrew from that land. While reporting a piece for The New Yorker a few years ago, Jeffrey Goldberg would come upon them by the roads. It was like seeing the battle markers at Gettysburg or Antietam, he wrote.

    One brightly colored sign, written in both Arabic and (rough) English, marked the spot where “On Oct. 19, 1988 at 1:25 p.m. a martyr car that was body trapped with 500 kilograms of highly exploding materials transformed two Israeli troops into masses of fire and limbs.”

    Busloads of tourists would take victory tours and stop at the prominent sights. Before the current war, there were gift shops and, in at least one place, a poster showing a Hezbollah fighter lifting a severed Israeli head. It all testified to the magnetism of a successful idea: that Muslim greatness can be restored through terrorism.

    Some people believe that terrorists are driven by desperation, but if you read the statements by Sheik Hassan Nasrallah and other Hezbollah leaders, it’s obvious that their movement has been inspired by opportunity and nourished by success. And the big news last week was that most of the world is calling for an immediate Lebanese cease-fire and another Israeli withdrawal.

    If that happens, Nasrallah will be able to build another chain of victory markers. There will be a missile- launcher monument in Tyre. There will be a terror gift shop in Maroun al-Ras. , he’ll probably build a suicide-bomber theme park in Bint Jbail.

    Nasrallah himself will become a legend, and teens across the region will be electrified by his glory.

    Many of those calling for this immediate cease-fire are people of good will whose anguish over the wartime suffering overrides long-term considerations. Some are European leaders who want Hezbollah destroyed but who don’t want anybody to actually do it. Some are professional diplomats, acolytes of the first-class-cabin fundamentalism that holds that “talks” and “engagement” can iron out any problem, regardless of the interests and beliefs and fanaticisms that make up the underlying reality.

    The best of them have a serious case to make. It’s true, they say, that Israel may degrade Hezbollah if it keeps fighting, but it may also sow so much instability that it ends up toppling the same Lebanese government that it is trying to strengthen.

    They point to real risks, but if a cease-fire is imposed now, there won’t be only risks. There will be dead certainties. If Hezbollah emerges from this moment still strong, it will tower like a giant over the Lebanese government. Extremist groups around the world will be swamped with recruits. Iran’s prestige will surge. The defenders of nation states and the sponsors of Resolution 1559 will be humiliated. Israel’s deterrence power will be shattered.

    It is dead certain that this cease-fire will not last, any more than the cease-fires of ’78 or ’93 or ’96 lasted. And most important, the idea — that the Muslim renaissance will come through terror — will dominate the sky like the bright summer sun.

    That idea is the key to the whole string of crises in this decade of jihad. Lebanon is a chance to show that the death cult is not invincible.

    To its enormous credit, the Bush administration has kept its focus on that core reality, and it has developed a strategy to reverse the momentum: let Israel weaken Hezbollah, then build an international force to help create a better Lebanon.

    Yet, having spent a week on the phone with experts and policy makers, I’d be lying if I said that I was optimistic the strategy will work. The renovation of Lebanon will require scaffolding, and the fact is the scaffolding of the West is corroding at every joint.

    The U.S. lacks authority because of Iraq. Over the past few days, Israel has grown wary of getting into Lebanon, because it might have no help getting out. The Europeans, being the Europeans, are again squandering a chance to play a big role in world affairs. The “moderate” Arabs are finding that if you spend a generation inciting hatred of Israel you will wind up prisoner to groups who hate Israel more than you do. The U.N. is simply feckless.

    The U.S. is right to resist the calls for a quick-fix cease-fire. But when you step back, you see once again the power of ideas. The terrorists are more unified by their ideas than we in the civilized world are unified by ours.

    Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

    =========================

    The cease fire will be charade, Hezbollah will be back, probing the Israeli border, shooting rockets into Israel, killing Israeli civilians.

    So the choice for Israel is clear: Lebanese civilians + Hezbollah killed by Israel attacking Hezbollah or Isreali civilians killed by Hezbollah killing Israeli civilians. What would you choose?
    Last edited by boutons_; 07-30-2006 at 08:42 AM.

  3. #53
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.

  4. #54
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.
    How do you defeat them?

  5. #55
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    I hate to tell you this, but Israel has already lifted Hezbollah far more than they have hurt them with this conflict. You do not beat terrorist groups with bombs.
    Exactly........ Not only has their power in Lebanon increased as a result but their status in the Arab world has gone way up..............

  6. #56
    Senior Member ShackO's Avatar
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    How do you defeat them?
    To be honest I don't think Israel can defeat them....

    The only way to deal with a situation like this is to do away with the cause....

    In this case pack up and leave Israel or perhaps give up "their holy places"..... Jerusalem an international city, and have a viable land base for them to live on etc....

    IMO to bomb innocent ppl in an attempt to persuade them to influence terrorist to stop only produces more terrorist.....

    You can kill individuals like zarkawi but his cause is so prevalent that his shoes are eagerly filled………

  7. #57
    Free Throw Coach Aggie Hoopsfan's Avatar
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    Picking up and moving? You just don't get it do you? People like bin Laden, Ahmedinijad, they want the whole world to be Muslim. Nasrallah hates the Jews.

    If the Jews picked up and moved to Antarctica, Hezbollah would be knitting parkas the day after.

    Edited for Manny.
    Last edited by Aggie Hoopsfan; 07-30-2006 at 04:25 PM.

  8. #58
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Nassrallah's fight isn't to convert the world to Islam. For someone who constantly talks about the history of the region you might want to review how stupid that sounds.

  9. #59
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't think Israel can defeat them....

    The only way to deal with a situation like this is to do away with the cause....

    In this case pack up and leave Israel or perhaps give up "their holy places"..... Jerusalem an international city, and have a viable land base for them to live on etc....

    IMO to bomb innocent ppl in an attempt to persuade them to influence terrorist to stop only produces more terrorist.....

    You can kill individuals like zarkawi but his cause is so prevalent that his shoes are eagerly filled………
    The only solution the Arabs will accept is the dismantling of the state of Israel and the exile of all the Jews.

    In other words, total defeat.

    Israel would rather kill every Muslim on earth than accept that.

    Luckily, they don't have to do so. They have weathered these conflagrations off and on for 60 years.

  10. #60
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    Here's great op-ed article from Krauthammer/WP. I don't always agree with this guy, but , like David Brooks/NYT, I read his stuff seriously, because he's serious.

    I agree with him below.


    ======================

    'Disproportionate' in What Moral Universe?

    By Charles Krauthammer
    Friday, July 28, 2006; A25

    What other country, when attacked in an unprovoked aggression across a recognized international frontier, is then put on a countdown clock by the world, given a limited time window in which to fight back, regardless of whether it has restored its own security?

    What other country sustains 1,500 indiscriminate rocket attacks into its cities -- every one designed to kill, maim and terrorize civilians -- and is then vilified by the world when it tries to destroy the enemy's infrastructure and strongholds with precision-guided munitions that sometimes have the unintended but unavoidable consequence of collateral civilian death and suffering?


    To hear the world pass judgment on the Israel-Hezbollah war as it unfolds is to live in an Orwellian moral universe. With a few significant exceptions (the leadership of the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada and a very few others), the world -- governments, the media, U.N. bureaucrats -- has completely lost its moral bearings.

    The word that obviates all thinking and magically inverts victim into aggressor is "disproportionate," as in the universally decried "disproportionate Israeli response."

    When the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor, it did not respond with a parallel "proportionate" attack on a Japanese naval base. It launched a four-year campaign that killed millions of Japanese, reduced Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cinders, and turned the Japanese home islands into rubble and ruin.

    Disproportionate? No. When one is wantonly attacked by an aggressor, one has every right -- legal and moral -- to carry the fight until the aggressor is disarmed and so disabled that it cannot threaten one's security again. That's what it took with Japan.

    Britain was never invaded by Germany in World War II. Did it respond to the Blitz and V-1 and V-2 rockets with "proportionate" aerial bombardment of Germany? Of course not. Churchill orchestrated the greatest air campaign and land invasion in history, which flattened and utterly destroyed Germany, killing untold innocent German women and children in the process.

    The perversity of today's international outcry lies in the fact that there is indeed a disproportion in this war, a radical moral asymmetry between Hezbollah and Israel: Hezbollah is deliberately trying to create civilian casualties on both sides while Israel is deliberately trying to minimize civilian casualties, also on both sides.

    In perhaps the most blatant terror campaign from the air since the London Blitz, Hezbollah is raining rockets on Israeli cities and villages. These rockets are packed with ball bearings that can penetrate automobiles and shred human flesh. They are meant to kill and maim. And they do.

    But it is a dual campaign. Israeli innocents must die in order for Israel to be terrorized. But Lebanese innocents must also die in order for Israel to be demonized, which is why Hezbollah hides its fighters, its rockets, its launchers, its entire infrastructure among civilians. Creating human shields is a war crime. It is also a Hezbollah specialty.

    On Wednesday CNN cameras showed destruction in Tyre. What does Israel have against Tyre and its inhabitants? Nothing. But the long-range Hezbollah rockets that have been raining terror on Haifa are based in Tyre. What is Israel to do? Leave untouched the launch sites that are deliberately placed in built-up areas?

    Had Israel wanted to destroy Lebanese civilian infrastructure, it would have turned out the lights in Beirut in the first hour of the war, destroying the billion-dollar power grid and setting back Lebanon 20 years. It did not do that. Instead it attacked dual-use infrastructure -- bridges, roads, airport runways -- and blockaded Lebanon's ports to prevent the reinforcement and resupply of Hezbollah. Ten thousand Katyusha rockets are enough. Israel was not going to allow Hezbollah 10,000 more.

    Israel's response to Hezbollah has been to use the most precise weaponry and targeting it can. It has no interest, no desire to kill Lebanese civilians. Does anyone imagine that it could not have leveled south Lebanon, to say nothing of Beirut? Instead, in the bitter fight against Hezbollah in southern Lebanon, it has repeatedly dropped leaflets, issued warnings, sent messages by radio and even phone text to Lebanese villagers to evacuate so that they would not be harmed.

    Israel knows that these leaflets and warnings give the Hezbollah fighters time to escape and regroup. The advance notification as to where the next attack is coming has allowed Hezbollah to set up elaborate ambushes. The result? Unexpectedly high Israeli infantry casualties. Moral scrupulousness paid in blood. Israeli soldiers die so that Lebanese civilians will not, and who does the international community condemn for disregarding civilian life?

    [email protected]

    © 2006 The Washington Post Company

  11. #61
    Marilyn Rae Lover jochhejaam's Avatar
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    Krauthammer's article is right on!

    Although he understated that Israel has endured 1,500 katyusha fired missles, the most recent report had them numbered at 4,000.

  12. #62
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Ayman al-Zawahri, July 27, 2006.


    Sadly, libs will still think we can just withdraw our troops from that part of the world and they will go away. I have never seen a more direct statement by anyone from AQ about what we're dealing with, maybe some of you otherwise ignorant fools will get a clue after this one.

    But I doubt it.
    The "war" on terrorism will not be won with troops. Some battles will be faught with military hardware, but the ultimate victory will be won by ideas, not bullets.

    Conservative thinking such as this is dangerously myopic and one-dimensional, but is unsurprising given the general lack of understanding evidenced by most conservatives about the rest of the world.

  13. #63
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    But for the record, I am with the hawks on Hezbullah. I hope the Israelis smack the out of them.

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