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  1. #51
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Don't be sucked in by Prof. Whotts deluted history lessons. He has already given us a shining example of his take on history.

    He says "democrats just want to cut and run.

    I haven't heard any politicians or anyone else on this forum say that but him. Thats how he spins all of his history garbage. I pity the unfortunate who have to hear him spew that just because their trapped near his infected world. That will be his take on the cut and run theory for the rest of his miserable life.

    Then he tries to appear openminded by saying he's unhappy with bush's immigration policy. Here's a tip Whott, replace that by saying " I don't want bush to touch another f ing thing. I don't even want him within smelling distance of another decision". So stop trying to appear flexible, your not bright enough to be a democrat or a liberal. Your genes couldn't support the weight. Bush is doing his part. He's going to spend a week and a half cutting brush himself. He will not hire an illegal alien to do it. Smartest thing he's done all year.

    Now, I know what you're going to say. "out my ass, in my ass, up my ass"!

    We can discuss your attraction to my ass after the experiment is complete.

    I'm going to watch closely, wait for another cut and run history lesson and compile all this marvelous data.

    I'm also going to be more careful, CHUCK. I don't want to find myself on the wrong end of your scope. Beware the tower!

  2. #52
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    Hijacking over, start your own thread.

    ===================

    August 4, 2006
    Op-Ed Columnist

    Time for Plan B

    By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

    It is now obvious that we are not midwifing democracy in Iraq. We are baby-sitting a civil war.

    When our top commander in Iraq, Gen. John Abizaid, tells a Senate Committee, as he did yesterday, that “the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it,” it means that three years of efforts to democratize Iraq are not working. That means “staying the course” is pointless, and it’s time to start thinking about Plan B — how we might disengage with the least damage possible.

    It seemed to me over the last three years that, even with all the Bush team’s missteps, we had to give our Iraqi partners a chance to produce a transitional government, then write a cons ution, then hold an election and then, finally, put together their first elected cabinet. But now they have done all of that — and the situation has only worsened.

    ( meanwhile, the poor ing US military is still getting killed and maimed, in in body and mind, while racking up charges for criminal misconduct )

    The Sunni jihadists and Baathists are as dedicated as ever to making this U.S.-Iraqi democracy initiative fail. That, and the runaway sectarian violence resulting from having too few U.S. troops and allowing a militia culture to become embedded, have made Iraq a lawless mess.

    Yes, I believe it was and remains hugely important to try to partner with Iraqis to create one good example in the heart of the Arab world of a decent, progressive state, where the politics of fear and tribalism do not reign — the politics that has produced all the pathologies of unemployment, religious intolerance and repression that make the Middle East so dangerous to itself and others.

    But the administration now has to admit what anyone — including myself — who believed in the importance of getting Iraq right has to admit: Whether for Bush reasons or Arab reasons, it is not happening, and we can’t throw more good lives after good lives.

    Since the Bush team never gave us a Plan A for Iraq, it at least owes us a Plan B. It’s not easy. Here are my first thoughts about a Plan B and some of the implications.

    I think we need to try a last-ditch Bosnia-like peace conference that would bring together all of Iraq’s factions and neighbors. Just as Bosnia could be solved only by an international peace force and the Dayton conference — involving Russia, Europe and the U.S., the powers most affected by Bosnia’s implosion — the civil war in Iraq can be quelled only by a coalition of those most affected by Iraq’s implosion: the U.S., Russia, Europe, Japan, India, China, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Syria and Jordan. As in Bosnia, any solution will have to be some form of federalism, a division of oil wealth and policing by an international force, where needed.

    For such a conference to come about, though, the U.S. would probably need to declare its intention to leave. Iraqis, other Arabs, Europeans and Chinese will get serious about helping to salvage Iraq only if they believe we are leaving and it will damage their interests.

    What would be the consequences of leaving without such a last-ditch peace effort, or if it just fails? Iraq could erupt into a much wider civil war, drawing in its neighbors. Or, Iraqis might stare into this abyss and actually come to terms with each other on their own. Our presence may be part of the problem. It’s hard to know.

    If Iraq opts for all-out civil war, its two million barrels a day will be off the market and oil could go above $100 a barrel. (That would, however, spur more investment in alternative fuels that could one day make us independent of this volatile region.)

    ( that would spurs many 10s of $Bs of even more record windfall profits in the oil/energy cos, so the Repugs should be all for supporting this key objective of the phony war, push up the price of oil )

    Some fear that Iran will be the winner. But will it? Once we are out of Iraq, Iran will have to manage the boiling pot next door. That will be a huge problem for Iran. The historical enmity toward Iran by Iraqi Arabs — enmity temporarily focused on us — will re-emerge. And Iran will also have to compete with its ally Syria for influence in Iraq.

    Yes, the best way to contain Iran would have been to produce a real Shiite-led democracy in Iraq, exposing the phony one in Tehran. But second best is leaving Iraq. Because the worst option — the one Iran loves — is for us to stay in Iraq, bleeding, and in easy range to be hit by Iran if we strike its nukes.

    Finally, the war in Iraq has so divided us at home and abroad that leaving, while bringing other problems, might also make it easier to build coalitions to deal with post-U.S. Iraq, Iran, Hezbollah and Syria. All these problems are connected. We need to deal with Iran and Syria, but from a position of strength — and that requires a broad coalition.

    The longer we maintain a unilateral failing strategy in Iraq, the harder it will be to build such a coalition, and the stronger the enemies of freedom will become.

    Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

    ======================

    So where is the leadership, the "vision-thang", Plan B from dubya/ head/rummy/Repugs?

    "stay the course" is a road deeper into , the insanity of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    The Repugs never really cared about Iraq.

    The bull reasons for invading Iraq have been exposed as abject lies.

    The phony Repug Iraq war was just a ploy to enrich the rich + corps while maintaining dubya in 2003 campgain as a "war president" in an election he would have otherwise lost, and it has done that wonderfully.

  3. #53
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    I am not going to act all offended here, but you arent even remotely qualified to accept that.

    The only people who can could possibly say "Youre welcome" either served in WW2, fought in any foreign war, or have served in the military (or the President, but thats immaterial).

    I dont fill any of those requirements, and I dont believe you do either. Heck, I dont even like the guy, but Vashner could.

  4. #54
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    I am not going to act all offended here, but you arent even remotely qualified to accept that.

    The only people who can could possibly say "Youre welcome" either served in WW2, fought in any foreign war, or have served in the military (or the President, but thats immaterial).

    I dont fill any of those requirements, and I dont believe you do either. Heck, I dont even like the guy, but Vashner could.

    Sounds like a personal problem to me.

    Now you know how I feel when all the pro-terrorists speak on behalf of America.




    Technically since smeagol lives in the states and may even be naturalized for all I know...he could have just been thanking himself.

    What I would have deemed inappropriate would have been to have said nothing.

  5. #55
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Sounds like a personal problem to me.

    Now you know how I feel when all the pro-terrorists speak on behalf of America.
    Why is it a personal problem? Nothing personal about it. Its clearly obvious, you have to be in some way associated with the military, in some capacity. Otherwise, youre just a civilian.

    Technically since smeagol lives in the states and may even be naturalized for all I know...he could have just been thanking himself.

    What I would have deemed inappropriate would have been to have said nothing.
    He thanked the US. Say something to the order of "Those who died would probably say youre welcome..." I dont know. Thats top-of-my-head . Or, if you were personally apart of the solution, you would say "De nada".

    Like I said, I am impassioned about it, but I think its relevant.

  6. #56
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    Why is it a personal problem? Nothing personal about it. Its clearly obvious, you have to be in some way associated with the military, in some capacity. Otherwise, youre just a civilian.

    In your opinion...your unsolicited opinion I might add.


    Sounds to me like you are looking for reasons to be offended...and I personally don't care.


    He thanked the US. Say something to the order of "Those who died would probably say youre welcome..." I dont know. Thats top-of-my-head . Or, if you were personally apart of the solution, you would say "De nada".

    Like I said, I am impassioned about it, but I think its relevant.

    I am sorry...I must of missed the post where smeagol left you in charge of interpreting his posts...who should accept the thanks and what would or wouldn't be offensive or unacceptable.

    I think you overstepped your authority there just a little bit.

    I personally think that if you are criticising our country, this war and our president at this time...that you are in fact opposing our troops and you speaking on their behalf is much more unacceptable than my accepting thanks on their behalf since none of them were doing it....

    Exactly what gives you that authority?


    Control Freak masquerading as caring human being....

    Why is it so easy for me to visualize you sitting on some tropical Island smoking cigars and controlling the thoughts and lsightest interpersonal actions of millions.

    You have already shown a tendency to attempt to control and regulate the speech of others....you've got a great future as commie. Just be what you are and don't claim it's got anything to do with freedom since you obviously have trouble respecting the freedoms of others.

  7. #57
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    In your opinion...your unsolicited opinion I might add.

    Sounds to me like you are looking for reasons to be offended...and I personally don't care.

    I am sorry...I must of missed the post where smeagol left you in charge of interpreting his posts...who should accept the thanks and what would or wouldn't be offensive or unacceptable.

    I think you overstepped your authority there just a little bit.

    I personally think that if you are criticising our country, this war and our president at this time...that you are in fact opposing our troops and you speaking on their behalf is much more unacceptable than my accepting thanks on their behalf since none of them were doing it....

    Exactly what gives you that authority?

    Control Freak masquerading as caring human being....

    Why is it so easy for me to visualize you sitting on some tropical Island smoking cigars and controlling the thoughts and lsightest interpersonal actions of millions.

    You have already shown a tendency to attempt to control and regulate the speech of others....you've got a great future as commie. Just be what you are and don't claim it's got anything to do with freedom since you obviously have trouble respecting the freedoms of others.
    Oh.
    My.
    God.

    LOL

    Youre a stooge. Seriously, youre comedic in value at best. Just as I thought you were, a judgemental prick. You dont know me whott, and I have never tried to edit anything, anyone says except some pretentious, over-reaching asshole accepting thanks when in fact he has in no way ever contributed to the cause he so eagerly awaits praise for.

    Was it just a coincidence no one said anything except you? I dont think so.

    And what the ing- did fighting the Nazis have anything at all to do with Iraq ("I personally think that if you are criticising our country, this war and our president at this time...that you are in fact opposing our troops ...")?!

    Youre delusional. Yup, we are all voting for Iraq's failure. God, you are so good at that! Please, continue showing everyone the guiding light.

    Pray tell, with all your vast knowledge and incredulous judgement, what do you do in real life that could possibly absorb your vast resources of wit and knowledge? Since I, as so astutely observed by you, obviously "[sit] on some tropical Island smoking cigars and controlling the thoughts and lsightest interpersonal actions of millions".

    No, no, no...dont tell me. In between jobs. Got it.

  8. #58
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    Oh.
    My.
    God.

    LOL

    Youre a stooge. Seriously, youre comedic in value at best. Just as I thought you were, a judgemental prick. You dont know me whott, [b]and I have never tried to edit anything,[b] anyone says except some pretentious, over-reaching asshole accepting thanks when in fact he has in no way ever contributed to the cause he so eagerly awaits praise for.
    That's like a murderer who has never mudered anyone EXCEPT...that person who deserved it.

    How nice of you to forgive yourself for your own hypochrisy.


    We should just put you in charge of everything shouldn't we....what people talk about on message boards, how they respond to comments....



    Was it just a coincidence no one said anything except you? I dont think so.
    I am sorry...but I must have missed the memorandum that put you in charge of everything and gave you authority on interpersonal exchanges on message boards.



    And what the ing- did fighting the Nazis have anything at all to do with Iraq ("I personally think that if you are criticising our country, this war and our president at this time...that you are in fact opposing our troops ...")?!
    What?

    Youre delusional. Yup, we are all voting for Iraq's failure. God, you are so good at that! Please, continue showing everyone the guiding light.
    You notice how you keep claiming to speak for everyone...and respond to my comments to you as "we". Not to mention telling me how I should have done what everyone else did...

    How very collective of you....Need a light for that Cigar?




    Pray tell, with all your vast knowledge and incredulous judgement, what do you do in real life that could possibly absorb your vast resources of wit and knowledge?

    No, no, no...dont tell me. In between jobs. Got it.
    Wow...

    You'd make a great judge...


    The irony of all this is that you are offended at yourself and you just don't realize it. That uncomfortable feeling you have up your butt right now isn't my foot, it's your own....I'll leave you to work it out.


    Not only do you think yourself in charge of interpreting smeagols intentions, but my response as well ,and you also seem to think you have authority to interpret what would or wouldn't be offensive to the US Military...and the right to regulate free speech.

    Damn...who died and made you gawd? You deeply caring humanitarian you.....Chill go have a Cigar...

    Hey smeagol...you're welcome x2.
    Last edited by whottt; 08-04-2006 at 02:42 PM.

  9. #59
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    I said "we" because I am not the only person in the world to criticize the government. Sorry thats such a leap for you.

    "Interpersonal Exchanges"? You accepting thanks on behalf of America is nowhere near "interpersonal". Merriam-Webster.com

    This ha snothing to do with Smeagol. Stop dragging him into it. It could have been anyone to say "Thanks America!" and youd be first in line to say "Youre welcome!" for doing absolutely nothing...ever to deserve said gra ude.

    It started as a small opinion on the matter, which you completely overreacted to (I have a feeling you have heard this all before), and we stand where we are now.

    So, I will let you have the last word because I know thats very important to you (all so weird how this keeps repeating itself, no?).

    BTW, you still havent offended me. The legions of wanna-be, e-peen stroking internet bullies are a tired lot. Youre a willing participant in a cliche. Grats on that.

  10. #60
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    So, I will let you have the last word because I know thats very important to you (all so weird how this keeps repeating itself, no?).
    Thanks...I appreciate that. If you don't mind I'll get right to doing just that.


    This argument was over and your ass was effectively kicked the second you intimated that I needed to have served in the military to be qualified to accept thanks for defeating communism.

    Your ass was further kicked based on your lack of knowledge of the differing political views and posting history of smeagol and myself...Ooops.

    TO quote smeagol...we once argued for 10 pages about Rugby.

    why is it that so often those who think they know so much, are the least aware of how little they truly know.

    I won't even go into the fact that you know little or nothing of my personal history in addition to the coldwar and how it was won and what I may or may not have done to play a role in that....because you just aren't worth it.




    BTW, you still havent offended me. The legions of wanna-be, e-peen stroking internet bullies are a tired lot. Youre a willing participant in a cliche. Grats on that.

    I post my opinion...you seem to follow me around in threads and snipe...

    If I am a cliche you are easily baited by a cliche....

    Congrats...

    And remember...a smart man realizes he doesn't know everything...it's what separates someone who says stupid stuff while speaking from a position of ignorance...from someone who doesn't.

  11. #61
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    Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (2 members and 0 guests)
    whottt, smeagol

    See what you started smeagol? You instigator.

  12. #62
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Hey smeagol...you're welcome x2.
    Thanks dude. You know I’m not in favor of the war in Iraq, but I do acknowledge, in the grand scheme of things, its far better having the US as the only superpower, than having to live with the alternative (the reds).

    TO quote smeagol...we once argued for 10 pages about Rugby.
    And I kicked your gringo ass on that discussion too, may I add!



    DR, deep inside (very deep inside), whottt is a lovable character.

  13. #63
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    Hey smeagol...are you naturalized? How long have you been here? I've always wondered that.


    And thanks for giving my country some props I honestly believe that in modern history most of the time all of us try to elect the leaders we think will do the best job and be a good leader of this country, not just for us, but for the rest of the world. That may not be the way it always turns out...but I do believe that is the intent of most of us. And hopefully in the long run things will turn out the best.

    I gotta admit I am still trying to figure out the Argie political mindset...

    On the one hand I had you guys classified as left leaning and further left leaning(even the conservatives) and then I see you guys get on here blasting Che Guevera and Chavez and I realize I have to put some more thought(a lot more thought) into the Argentine political mind...it's a pretty complex thing.


    Oh and the Rugby Argument was fun...I need to go back and reread it if it still exists lol. I think we had that argument back when the site was on EZ board though.

  14. #64
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Hey smeagol...are you naturalized? How long have you been here? I've always wondered that.
    I was here between 1996 and beginning of 2000. I went back to Argentina, was there for about a year, and found a job in NYC one more time in July 2001. I’ve been here since, although I have plans to move back for good in Feb next year (I will miss the NBA League Pass!). I’ve had a green card since Oct 2004 and I need to check what my options are once I go back. Unfortunately, I believe I will lose it after a certain period of time without living in the US.

    Long story short, I’m not a citizen.

    And thanks for giving my country some props I honestly believe that in modern history most of the time all of us try to elect the leaders we think will do the best job and be a good leader of this country, not just for us, but for the rest of the world. That may not be the way it always turns out...but I do believe that is the intent of most of us. And hopefully in the long run things will turn out the best.
    My biggest issue with the US’ foreign policy is more on the economic front. I have expressed my views on this topic in numerous threads. I can live with some of America’s military interventions if it did more helping poor nations develop. And no, I’m not talking about aid. It has to do with policies. Cutting on subsidies and tariffs would be a good start (and Europe is guiltier than the US on this topic).

    I gotta admit I am still trying to figure out the Argie political mindset...
    You mean, why we elect idiots such as our president and why the dude has 60 - 70% approval rate? I wonder that myself.

    On the one hand I had you guys classified as left leaning and further left leaning(even the conservatives) and then I see you guys get on here blasting Che Guevera and Chavez and I realize I have to put some more thought(a lot more thought) into the Argentine political mind...it's a pretty complex thing.
    Unfortunately, my country is full of Che Guevara / Castro / Chavez – loving idiots. Embarrassing, if you ask me.


    Oh and the Rugby Argument was fun...I need to go back and reread it if it still exists lol. I think we had that argument back when the site was on EZ board though.
    Lol

    Even MB dubbed me the Latin American whottt after that my lengthy responses to your even lengthier comments.

  15. #65
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Hey whottt, should I join the conversation?... hehehe

  16. #66
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    Sure, I'd like to hear your insight on the Argentine political mind as well.

  17. #67
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    I was here between 1996 and beginning of 2000. I went back to Argentina, was there for about a year, and found a job in NYC one more time in July 2001. I’ve been here since, although I have plans to move back for good in Feb next year (I will miss the NBA League Pass!). I’ve had a green card since Oct 2004 and I need to check what my options are once I go back. Unfortunately, I believe I will lose it after a certain period of time without living in the US.

    Long story short, I’m not a citizen.
    Ahh ok. I knew you had been here for a while. Good luck going to back to Argentina.



    My biggest issue with the US’ foreign policy is more on the economic front. I have expressed my views on this topic in numerous threads. I can live with some of America’s military interventions if it did more helping poor nations develop. And no, I’m not talking about aid. It has to do with policies. Cutting on subsidies and tariffs would be a good start (and Europe is guiltier than the US on this topic).
    Fair enough...I personally think that aid and sanctions are used often in lieu of military intervention and these do nothing to help those nations develop and are usually helpful in entrenching dictators and worsening the quality of life for the people trapped in these countries.


    If the aid got to where it was supposed to go and the sanctions hurt who they were supposed to hurt it'd be one thing...but it works just the opposite so yeah...improving economic and trade conditions with countries that are in a position to do something with it would probably keep a lot of bad situations from getting worse and help some strained situations improve.



    You mean, why we elect idiots such as our president and why the dude has 60 - 70% approval rate? I wonder that myself.
    Oh I understand that...Socialism is excellent at combatting poverty and is a better alternative to aristocracy...but that's about where it's benefits end.


    Unfortunately, my country is full of Che Guevara / Castro / Chavez – loving idiots. Embarrassing, if you ask me.
    LOL...we have em here too.



    Lol

    Even MB dubbed me the Latin American whottt after that my lengthy responses to your even lengthier comments.

    Was a fun and fondly remembered argument.

  18. #68
    Ain't over 'till its over MaNuMaNiAc's Avatar
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    Sure, I'd like to hear your insight on the Argentine political mind as well.
    wow... hmmm... tell you what, I'm on my way out right now but I will definately answer that question when I get back, although that won't be until tomorrow morning Later people!

    PS: DarkReign, its all good bro, wait 'till you've have a few more "whott arguments" and you'll find out the dude is alright after all

  19. #69
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    Oh and the Rugby Argument was fun...I need to go back and reread it if it still exists lol. I think we had that argument back when the site was on EZ board though.
    http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100&page=1&pp=26

    I remember I could actually hear you cry through my screen after the asskicking I gave you when the discussion was over

  20. #70
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    I post my opinion...you seem to follow me around in threads and snipe...
    This was the sole exception I allowed myself. I was wondering if youd say something along these lines...

    Its hard not to follow you when you bully your way around, every, single, thread, in the political forum.

    Im not following, youre just spamming your opinion everywhere. I just so happen to post in some threads, whilst you post in all threads. So, to you, everyone follows Whott.

    With your obvious elitist at ude, your self-declared ass-kicking of me, and your compulsion to think I would follow you around, one would conclude you possess a humungous EEEEEEEEGOOOOOOO.

  21. #71
    I love J.T. smeagol's Avatar
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    The stupid link does not work. Search "rugby". The thread is called "American Sports" and it's from Sept 2004.

  22. #72
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    PS: DarkReign, its all good bro, wait 'till you've have a few more "whott arguments" and you'll find out the dude is alright after all
    No thanks. If someone must come across first as an asshat only for me to warm to their egotism, the guy could turn out to be the Pope and I still wouldnt like him.

    I dont think I have ever had an argument quite like this one. According to whott, I was pwnd, so...meh, who cares.

  23. #73
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    No thanks. If someone must come across first as an asshat only for me to warm to their egotism, the guy could turn out to be the Pope and I still wouldnt like him.

    I dont think I have ever had an argument quite like this one. According to whott, I was pwnd, so...meh, who cares.

    I think Castro is a sore loser too...Props.

  24. #74
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    No thanks. If someone must come across first as an asshat only for me to warm to their egotism, the guy could turn out to be the Pope and I still wouldnt like him.

    I dont think I have ever had an argument quite like this one. According to whott, I was pwnd, so...meh, who cares.

    And you know what?

    You are a completely arrogant ass....because you seem to think the world revolves around you and if you aren't around...nothing happens.

    Here's the deal head...

    I've listened your lame ass pontifctions about proper conduct and how they should work until I just want to puke on you.


    Let me tell you a little about this board since you haven't mentally matured enough to realize that objects that are not in your site don't cease to exist.


    This board was founded by two people that were banned from another board....

    About half the original membership was banned from other boards, for being disruptive personalities, stirriers and just atypical personality types.....

    And IMO, the founders of this board actually sought that type of person originally...I know I got an invite.

    I've listened to other posters explain to you how this forum used to be, I've seen you just put your foot in your mouth because it is inconcievable to you that two other people could have posting and arguing history that you are not even aware of...

    So don't call me egotistical you collosal ass...you're the one thinks the world revolves around you and that's why you made an ass of yourself and took a facetious dialogue seriously.

    Go yourself. Arrogant prick.

  25. #75
    Believe. gtownspur's Avatar
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