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  1. #1
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    'Low Intensity Civil War' Likely in Iraq, Ambassador Says

    By Mary Jordan and Fred Barbash
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Thursday, August 3, 2006; 7:10 AM


    LONDON, Aug. 3 -- Britain's outgoing ambassador to Iraq has advised his government that the country is more likely headed to "low intensity civil war" and sectarian par ion than to a stable democracy, the BBC reported Wednesday.

    The network said it obtained a diplomatic dispatch from William Patey to Prime Minister Tony Blair and top members of Blair's cabinet.

    The British government, which maintains troops in Iraq, has been supportive of the policies of the Bush administration in Iraq, making Patey's assessment all the more significant. Patey's views are shared by many other commentators, but few, if any, officials allied with the U.S.-led coalition have said so publicly.

    Patey's assessment was not made publicly either and the British government said it does not comment on leaked do ents.

    Blair is scheduled to hold a news conference later Thursday and will likely be faced with questions about the Patey memo.

    In it, the BBC said, Patey wrote that "the prospect of a low intensity civil war and a de facto division of Iraq is probably more likely at this stage than a successful and substantial transition to a stable democracy.

    "Even the lowered expectation of President Bush for Iraq -- a government that can sustain itself, defend itself and govern itself and is an ally in the war on terror -- must remain in doubt."

    He said it a major priority was to contain militia organizations -- such as the Mahdi Army led by the radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr -- lest they become "a state within a state, as Hezbollah has done in Lebanon. . . .

    The BBC did not publish a copy of the memo, but rather reported excerpts from it.

    President Bush has acknowledged that the situation in Iraq in many ways has worsened lately. But administration officials have resisted "civil war" analogies.

    ( "A rose by another name .... ")

    Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has reversed a decision to skip a public hearing on Capitol Hill and said he will testify Thursday at a session on the Iraq war.

    The move came after hours of criticism and pressure from Senate Democrats who urged him to come before the Senate Armed Services Committee to answer questions about the administration's Iraq policies.

    Rumsfeld had said earlier Wednesday that his crowded calendar did not allow him to be present for the meeting Thursday morning, but he agreed to attend a private, classified briefing in the afternoon with the entire Senate.

    Speaking to Pentagon reporters earlier Wednesday, Rumsfeld suggested that complaints about his decision could be politically motivated.

    The Pentagon provided no reason for the change. The committee said the Pentagon called and said the secretary would be testifying.

    Fred Barbash reported from Washington .

    © 2006 The Washington Post Company


  2. #2
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    BBC NEWS

    US echoes Iraq civil war warning

    The top US commander in the Middle East, Gen John Abizaid, has said Iraq could move toward civil war if the sectarian violence is not stopped.

    "The sectarian violence is probably as bad as I have seen it, Gen Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee.

    A similar warning was contained in a confidential memo to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair by the UK's outgoing ambassador to Iraq.

    William Patey also predicted the break-up of Iraq along ethnic lines.

    A bomb left near a busy Baghdad shopping area on Thursday killed at least 10 people and injured 29, police said.

    US commanders have recently moved 3,700 troops from Mosul to Baghdad to bolster the capital's fragile security.

    Love not hate

    Gen Abizaid told the committee the top priority was to secure the Iraqi capital, where the struggle was at a "decisive" stage. "It is clear that the operational and tactical situation in Baghdad is such that it requires additional security forces, both US and Iraqi," he said.

    But Gen Abizaid also said he remained optimistic that the Iraqi government and iraqi forces, with US support, could prevent the slide into civil war.

    Gen Abizaid's warning was backed up by Gen Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who said ultimately descending into or avoiding civil war depended on the Iraqis.


    IRAQ VIOLENCE

    "Shia and Sunni are going to have to love their children more than they hate each other," Gen Pace said.

    ( the feminization of the US Army, gone all touchy-feely )

    The two generals were joined by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld who did not comment directly on the prospect of civil war but again warned against pulling out US troops prematurely.

    British Ambassador William Patey, who left Baghdad last week, gave a bleak assessment of Iraq's future in his final diplomatic cable.

    "The prospect of a low intensity civil war and a de facto division of Iraq is probably more likely at this stage than a successful and substantial transition to a stable democracy."

    He said that position was not hopeless but it would be "messy" for five to 10 years.


    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/5243042.stm

    Published: 2006/08/03 16:18:49 GMT

    © BBC MMVI

    ====================

    Well the ex post facto justification for the Repug war isn't looking very credible either

    1) democracy isn't breaking out in the in the M/E, let alone in Iraq

    2) the invasion hasn't put the fear into any terrrorists, or cowed Iran or Syria.

    The US military is looking very ineffective right now, and its limits to take on terrorists head-on and assure public security in a shocked/awed/invaded/occupied country are very evident to all the US's enemies.

    And of course, the US is no safer now than before dubya/ head/rummy/wolfie wasted 2,500+ US military lives.

    "You're doing a heckuva job, dubya"
    Last edited by boutons_; 08-03-2006 at 12:09 PM.

  3. #3
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Bah, the US is second to none in ass-kicking and grandstanding.

    Its the whole "nation-building" that fux us all up. Britain is much better at it, historically, shoulda gave the job to them.

  4. #4
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    Britain is much better at it, historically, shoulda gave the job to them.

    You're insane....

    Psst...

    Pakistan
    Afghanisatn
    Iran
    Iraq
    Saudi Arabia

    Have all felt the embrace of British Nation Building...and all the problems we face with these countries now are either directly or indirectly tied to the despots they put in power or the after effects of their colonization attempts.


    What the British were good at is colonization and massacring indigenous populations...and their aristocratic policies usually caused their own colonies to reject them. Oh...they're also good at saying what you want to hear but having little success actually giving it to you.

    Oh yeah...and it was the British that created the ed up Paletstinian Israel problem too by promising both groups sections of the same land.



    Geezus...and you wonder why I tell you guys to ing a crack a book sometime...before you just spontaneously form opinions.

    The Brits are the worst in history at nation building compared to anyone but the French.

    Damn you ing dudes scare the living out of me.


    So let's run that checklist of British Influence on other Nations...one more time...

    Pakistan
    Afganisan
    Iran
    Iraq
    Saudi Arabia
    Israel
    Palestine


    Oh and in the name of biparisanism for the Nbadans boutons and others...their greatest evil...

    US.




    This is excluding the many humanitarian holes in Africa they created.


    America has a much better track record on this sort of thing...in fact we have the best track record of anyone...

    Modern War Free Europe for one.

    Japan for another.

    It's when we try the European Colonial er......appoint a friendly despot approach(like in Iran) that we fail.


    All these evil allies, like Saudi, you libs are so fond of criticising America for having were put in place by the British.

    Just learn something before you vote mmmmkay?


    This is why I have such a hard time respecting the opinions of the boards libs...because you guys seldom have a clue what you are talking about.

    Not trying to be mean...but damn, that was about as wrong of a statement as you can make.
    Last edited by whottt; 08-03-2006 at 01:33 PM.

  5. #5
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Yeah you... ..... y s bags STFU........ ...hole......pussies....if you could see everything from my birdseye view.........pres. can do anything he wants...you.. ........life is great nowSTFU......pussy.... ....pussy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  6. #6
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    I bet bush picked up one of your books and thought "here is the reason to invade Iraq, Whott had it the whole time. It's because of history! Maybe I can find a book to allow me to re-enact the bay of pigs!"

    I watched those hearings and came away with nuasea. Noone on either side is worth a damn. But this administration is just winging it.

  7. #7
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    Yeah you... ..... y s bags STFU........ ...hole......pussies....if you could see everything from my birdseye view.........pres. can do anything he wants...you.. ........life is great nowSTFU......pussy.... ....pussy!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Give me one example of Britain building a successful independent nation with an indigenous population...

    One example.

    Or shut up.

  8. #8
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Give me one example of Britain building a successfull independent nation with an indigenous population...
    Well, India, but I degress.

  9. #9
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    Well, India, but I degress.

    Digress all you want...but you are wrong.
    Wrong.
    Wrong.
    Wrong.

    Britain didn't built India into a Democracy...

    Britain colonized, exploited, conquered and ruled India until they broke free and gained Independence.

    How in the do you consider that nation building?

    Britain didn't ins ute Democracy and Independence in India....the ing Indians did.

    They were a commonwealth dependency under the British....


    So basicially, we should conguer all the countries in the mid-east and plunder their wealth until they drive us out right?


    LMAO...

    This is ing great...You just surpassed Yoni as the biggest neocon on the board.


    I am literally falling out of my chair laughing.


    Let's use the India plan...conquer and rule them until they drive us out.


  10. #10
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    So basicially, we should conguer all the countries in the mid-east and plunder their wealth until they drive us out right?
    How is this different from current U.S. policy? It was Colonialism that led to the creation of an independent India, so without Britain exploiting the indiginants, maybe India wouldn't have organized. Same thing that is happening to the U.S. in Iraq.

  11. #11
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    LMAO the most successful example of British Nation Building is Saudi Arabia...

    Let's do that one instead.

  12. #12
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    How is this different from current U.S. policy? It was Colonialism that led to the creation of an independent India, so without Britain exploiting the indiginants, maybe India wouldn't have organized. Same thing that is happening to the U.S. in Iraq.

    We're removed a military dictator from power and are installing a Democracy...that's exactly what we are ing doing and I don't know how you could think we are doing anything else with it.


    And BTW...

    The British already installed one government in Iraq...sheesh...how'd that turn out?

  13. #13
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    How is this different from current U.S. policy? It was Colonialism that led to the creation of an independent India, so without Britain exploiting the indiginants, maybe India wouldn't have organized. Same thing that is happening to the U.S. in Iraq.


    You know what current major US policy is in the Middle East and has been for the last 100 years?

    Ally ourselves with all the dictators installed by the British before the Russians(and now the Chinese do)....

    How's that working out for us?

  14. #14
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    The USA. Maybe not intentional, but by proxy.

  15. #15
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    We're removed a military dictator from power and are installing a Democracy...that's exactly what we are ing doing and I don't know how you could think we are doing anything else with it.

    And BTW...

    The British already installed one government in Iraq...sheesh...how'd that turn out?
    More like removing a Dictator and putting in yet another in a long string of puppet governments. Iraq has the third largest reserve of Oil still in the ground, how you can think that this hasn't figured into a Oil President's agenda is beyond me.

  16. #16
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    LMAO the most successful example of British Nation Building is Saudi Arabia...

    Let's do that one instead.
    South and Central America - shining examples of democracy.


  17. #17
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Hey Whott, history! You want to go back and re-live it, have fun! Your certainly no help for the present.

    I sat and watch that hearing in horror. Their asking THESE people questions! It didn't occur to them what the quality or value of their answers would be!

    When I listened to Hillary I thought, what a pub hound. Then I thought at least she's smart enough to know THESE guy's got no answer. The most worthless statements made were from Hillary and yet the tactic is the only one that made sense. Then she promptly got up and left. She's such an ahole!

  18. #18
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    Yeah Dan...

    You can tell what a colonial proxy ruler we are by the fact that half the countries in Europe where our military stands as their sole form of protection and or has stood since WWII tell us to go ourselves with regularity and even lead international opposition against us.

    France and Germany immeditately come to mind.

    Wooo we're the devil...

  19. #19
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    South and Central America - shining examples of democracy.


    Psssst....

    Who colonized South America slick?

    Wasn't us...

    If you guys could remove your tongue from European ass you'd reaslize that after having been under their thumb...any form of government looks good...including socialism, or militant Islam....looks good to the people living there anyway...

    Now I realize you'd rather have Soviet Nukes stuck up our ass for most of the cold war...

    But seeing as how the Soviets had mass emmigration problems(well they would have) and are no longer around...they aren't and weren't a good alternative either...and they are no different than a military dictator.

    In fact...all Socialist Countries that I know of that still around are Military Dictatorships.


    Do you see people hopping on boats to get into Cuba? or to get out?




    Tell you what...let's all move to the countries built by those we think are the best nation builders....

    Me? I'm going to ing Germany or Japan...

    You guys get to go Algeria, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe.
    Last edited by whottt; 08-03-2006 at 03:26 PM.

  20. #20
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    Hey Whott, history! You want to go back and re-live it, have fun! Your certainly no help for the present.

    I sat and watch that hearing in horror. Their asking THESE people questions! It didn't occur to them what the quality or value of their answers would be!

    When I listened to Hillary I thought, what a pub hound. Then I thought at least she's smart enough to know THESE guy's got no answer. The most worthless statements made were from Hillary and yet the tactic is the only one that made sense. Then she promptly got up and left. She's such an ahole!
    History is a better thing to go on...than, your ass.

    You never have any factual backing for your arguments...you don't even attempt it...

    At least when I criticize I have some form of factual basis...

    You have none.

    I have less respect for you, your knowldge, and the insight behind your opinion, than any poster I have ever encountered on this forum.


    boutons and Nbadan drive me insane with their hardwired bias and no clearly discernible stance other than opposition...but they do at least read before they form the basis of their opinion....

    There is literally nothing of substantial basis behind your opinion....

  21. #21
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    You have no respect for anyone. Its plainly obvious. Youre right there with Yoni and Gtown.

  22. #22
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    You have no respect for anyone. Its plainly obvious. Youre right there with Yoni and Gtown.
    whottt may be a horse's ass, but he is a horse's ass who cites fact.

  23. #23
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    whottt may be a horse's ass, but he is a horse's ass who cites fact.
    Agreed. But the message gets lost with the messenger.

  24. #24
    I Got Hops Extra Stout's Avatar
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    Agreed. But the message gets lost with the messenger.
    His tone used to be the norm for the political forum. We've calmed down since then.

  25. #25
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    More like removing a Dictator and putting in yet another in a long string of puppet governments. Iraq has the third largest reserve of Oil still in the ground, how you can think that this hasn't figured into a Oil President's agenda is beyond me.


    Um...Iraq is in freaking OPEC.


    It was in OPEC under Saddam.
    It is in OPEC under the current government.

    It is traded globally and the only subsidized oil was in the decade it was under UN Sanctions.


    Thread of Rad Islam - Real.
    They do commit suicide bombings.
    They are relgious fascists...like have plagued all the religions.

    Just like the coldwar...

    The Soviet Union was an exapansionist military empire...it was not all in our imgaginations. They were real...they really did invade other countries and impose their form of government on them...how can you tell it was a bad government? Well, it's no longer around for one thing....people defected from it or died escaping for another...

    Does that sort of thing happen in Democracies?

    One is better than the other.

    Last I checked we get more Oil from Non Opec Canda and Mexico than we do from Saudi Arabia or any mideastern or OPEC country.

    If all we wanted was to put Iraq back into OPEC we could have just lifted the sanctions.

    And the only Oil interests we protect in the Middle East are the World's.

    Why is it so hard to relize that there are a load of suicide bombers in the middle east that are Religious Fascists, they are the tools of a bunch of heads that have no interest in personal freedoms or civil rights, they just want to be kings sitting on a load of Oil.... and what the potential is once they get nukes?
    Last edited by whottt; 08-03-2006 at 04:06 PM.

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