Elson HAS to start

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

That's a good point, except I would say Manu plays better with Oberto than he does with Elson and that's half the reason why Oberto is starting(the other half being Oberto knows the defense better than Elson).

That's exactly why Oberto is starting. He knows the D and cooperates with the team better.

[Tom_Foolery]

Until Elson knows everything that Oberto does and does it better, Oberto will start. He hasn't shown that.

I don't think that's the answer.

Obviously turkoglu and barry didn't know "everything and did everything better than Manu" when Manu was coming off the bench. he was coming off the bench becauses Barry & Turkoglu sucked coming off the bench, not because Manu didn't "know everything and didn't do everything better".

Oberto should start only for the reason being he has better chemistry with Manu on the floor and that he knows the defense better and will be more productive for the Spurs than he would coming off the bench.


I guess there are always going to be haters that refuse to look in other directions on the board(this is not directed to you btw). just like when we signed Rasho, people refused to believe Pop could "do no wrong". Year after year, Rasho's numbers went south and people refused to believe "Pop can do no wrong". And STILL when Nazr came to the Spurs, there were haters saying "Rasho should start", and even when Nazr was playing incredible and starting for the Spurs, there were the same haters who still refused to believe that "Nazr was a better player". And you wonder why people here think there are a good amount of haters who may be racist? A racist Spurs fan in Texas??? Say it ain't so:/

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).
Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".

Nazr started because he was flat out better than Rasho. In the 2006 season Rasho started instead of Nazr because he missed mainly all of training camp, and Oberto and Elson have spent the same amount of time at training camp and are almost equal, but Oberto starts because he has more experience here.

And..
Rasho = Slovenian
Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I don't think that's the answer.

Obviously turkoglu and barry didn't know "everything and did everything better than Manu" when Manu was coming off the bench. he was coming off the bench becauses Barry & Turkoglu sucked coming off the bench, not because Manu didn't "know everything and didn't do everything better".

Oberto should start only for the reason being he has better chemistry with Manu on the floor and that he knows the defense better and will be more productive for the Spurs than he would coming off the bench.


I guess there are always going to be haters that refuse to look in other directions on the board(this is not directed to you btw). just like when we signed Rasho, people refused to believe Pop could "do no wrong". Year after year, Rasho's numbers went south and people refused to believe "Pop can do no wrong". And STILL when Nazr came to the Spurs, there were haters saying "Rasho should start", and even when Nazr was playing incredible and starting for the Spurs, there were the same haters who still refused to believe that "Nazr was a better player". And you wonder why people here think there are a good amount of haters who may be racist? A racist Spurs fan in Texas??? Say it ain't so:/

Manu played better off the bench at that point, and we don't know if Oberto plays good off the bench, so why bother with the success we're having now? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[ChumpDumper]

I've read your responses and they often contradict your own statements. You do a lot of backpeddling.

Absolutely not. You just don't read very well. That's your problem.

Wrong. Nazr started in the playoffs his 1st season w/ the Spurs, over the "more knowledgeable-of-the-system Rasho". He didn't start the following season because his play dropped off, not because he didn't "know the system better". Obviously he knew the system enough to start his 1st season. It was Nazr's lack of fire & production that kept him from regaining the starting spot the following season.

Nah. Nazr never learned the system to the extent Rasho did. Ever. He produced more rebounds and was more aggressive offensively, and as I said it was enough to get him the starting job for awhile, but not enough to keep it since he never learned the sytem as we all hoped he would.

So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).

You are the only person who has brought up race here. That's says more about you than anything else.

He also recovers well and gets blocks.

And?

Still averages more fouls and less minutes than 1st year Elson, but I guess that's because "Elson doesn't know the system"?(omg.)

I've explained why Oberto gets fouls. You are endearingly ignorant.

I totally understand and agree. You just come off very suspect and coincidentally, your comments kind of reflect closet prejudiceness.

Nah, I come across as someone who knows the Spurs better than you.

Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".

Nazr never got the system down. If he ever did he'd be starting for the Spurs and Elson wouldn't be here at all.

[Tom_Foolery]

Manu played better off the bench at that point, and we don't know if Oberto plays good off the bench, so why bother with the success we're having now? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Totally agree 100%.

[Tom_Foolery]

Rasho = Slovenian
Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)

Silly me...I thought Rasho was white and Elson was black.

[Tom_Foolery]

Absolutely not. You just don't read very well. That's your problem.

I've read well enough to point out your contradictions.

Nah. Nazr never learned the system to the extent Rasho did. Ever. He produced more rebounds and was more aggressive offensively, and as I said it was enough to get him the starting job for awhile, but not enough to keep it since he never learned the sytem as we all hoped he would.

Then I guess "knowing the system" is a bit overrated since Nazr was starting in the playoffs a couple years ago. Which brings me to my next point, if Nazr didn't know the system as well as Rasho but was more productive and they won the championship with Nazr starting, then why can't the same be applied to Elson since he's more productive than Oberto?

You are the only person who has brought up race here. That's says more about you than anything else.

Maybe it says that I am more socially aware and conscious of things like racists and bigotry than those who refuse to believe racism still exists in the world, let alone a San Antonio Spurs message board? I owe it all to your comments, so a big "Thank You" goes out to the Chump for reminding me that "racism can exist everywhere, even in the fanbase of a basketball team from Texas".

And?I've explained why Oberto gets fouls. You are endearingly ignorant.Nah, I come across as someone who knows the Spurs better than you.Nazr never got the system down. If he ever did he'd be starting for the Spurs and Elson wouldn't be here at all.

Well, he did start over Rasho, who knew the system better. Nazr wanted more money, that's why he's not on the Spurs. Rasho just flat out sucked.

I think it's hilarious that you refuse to accept the fact that Nazr starting over Rasho and knew the system just as good as Rasho even though Rasho had years of experience over 1st year Nazr. Maybe it's because "blacks aren't as smart as whites and that's why they don't know the system"?(too funny)

[ChumpDumper]

Then I guess "knowing the system" is a bit overrated since Nazr was starting in the playoffs a couple years ago. Which brings me to my next point, if Nazr didn't know the system as well as Rasho but was more productive and they won the championship with Nazr starting, then why can't the same be applied to Elson since he's more productive than Oberto?

You might want to go back and read what you didn't read or didn't understand earlier in the thread:

He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.

Here's a link so you don't get lost going back a page:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=33

Maybe it says that I am more socially aware and conscious of things like racists and bigotry than those who refuse to believe racism still exists in the world, let alone a San Antonio Spurs message board?

Do you want a link to the Political Forum too?

Nazr wanted more money, that's why he's not on the Spurs.

More than what? The Spurs didn't even make him an offer and Nazr signed for conceiveably less money than he could've made as a Spur.

Now be a good boy and actually read posts before you accuse people of racism for no reason.

[Kori Ellis]

And they don't do that for Oberto? I'm not arguing that Oberto knows the system...HE BETTER know the system than a person in his 1st season w/ the Spurs.

But, for all complaints, flaws, and inefficiencies you've pointed out about Elson, it still doesn't explain why Elson is STILL averaging more minutes.

You may not like Elson and maybe you see only things you want to see, but Pop is putting Elson on the floor for more minutes. And that says something.

Elson and Oberto average about the SAME minutes (19.6 and 19.0) that's how it will probably always be whoever starts. Because both of them have deficiencies in their game. Neither one of them is good enough to be a 30 mpg center.

[Kori Ellis]

Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".

No one has mentioned race except for you in this thread. And I've had enough of you throwing around racist/prejudice accusations. Everyone else is talking about basketball abilities, you are the only one hung up on race.

[spurs_in_7]

yes, he has to start....... to eat more bench

seems hes getting worser and worser each game he plays

[spurtime]

Oberto's kicking ass. No reason to rock the boat at this point.

[xamila rey]

comig back to the topic of Oberto vs. Elson
i think Fabio had a great game today,
while Francisco missed too many rotations (as usual)

[Extra Stout]

This thread is nearing classic status.

CD: Oberto knows the Spurs' system better, and since Elson is not playing leaps and bounds better than him, it makes sense that Oberto keeps starting.

TF: YOU'RE RACIST!!

It has been a while since the forum has featured this kind of self-inflicted ass-hattery.

[spurtime]

The racial stuff is moronic. The Spurs are nothing if not a merit based organization and that is usually reflected in the fans' at udes as well.

[smeagol]

Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)

Dutch

[whottt]

Dutch

He can't be Dutch because he's black...Racist!

Lesson #1:

Ginobili can't be white because he speaks Spanish.

Lesson #2:

Elson can't be Dutch because he's black. However since he speaks Dutch he could be considered half white.


Let's keep things straight here smeag....

[whottt]

Come to think of it...Oberto can't be white either since he speaks Spanish...while Elson speaks both English and Dutch so he's got to be at least 2/3rds white...

Which means that Pop is guilty of reverse discrimination by starting non-white Oberto over 2/3 white Elson.


Hmmm...there just might be some racism at play here...I first noticed it when Pop benched Rasho in favor of Nazr.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Oberto played well tonight

Let the man continue starting!

[whottt]

Racist

[T Park]

@ Tom Foolery.

Way to look like a moron chief.

Good job.

[Nero]

Starting, schmarting. They're each getting 20min/game. That's the key stat. Pop is giving them equal chance to shine and compete against each other, and they get to stay fresh this way. We don't need either of them getting a 35min workload at the expense of the other rotting on the bench, forgetting how to play. Our Franberto combo is gold at the moment.

[Dingle Barry]

tom foolery: leave

[Tom_Foolery]

You might want to go back and read what you didn't read or didn't understand earlier in the thread:Here's a link so you don't get lost going back a page:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...0&postcount=33

Do you want a link to the Political Forum too?More than what? The Spurs didn't even make him an offer and Nazr signed for conceiveably less money than he could've made as a Spur.

Now be a good boy and actually read posts before you accuse people of racism for no reason.

Well, that's the impression I get. As far as Nazr, well he was in the dog house and it was common knowledge that he was going to command much more than the Spurs were willing to offer. If Nazr got the same contract that either Elson or Butler got, we'd be seeing Nazr starting this season for the Spurs.