Suns

[mabber]

You beat me to it RonMexico! I too get tired of these Spurs and Mav fans saying things like this about the Suns. The Suns are improving in rebounding and defense now that Kurt Thomas is back and Amare is playing so well. Cannot wait until we play the Mavs in December. They are too much a one on one team and we play as a team.

It sucks doesn't it?!?!?! There's at least a full season lag time before the general public (fans) realize a team has changed a bit from their past. Nobody gave the Mavs any respect for their improved defense last season until the playoffs. Only the fans of those teams with decent basketball knowledge understand when things have started changing. Until the Suns show some better defense in the playoffs, no one will believe you and you will just have to live with that. I have no doubt you're correct though as I went thru the same futile effort last season trying to explain that that Mavs were a much improved defensive team.

By the way, I think the Mavs have regressed a little bit in their defensive effort this season thus far. They can still play really good shut down defense when it matters but they aren't doing it as consistently as they did last season.

[mabber]

Dirk still plays NO defense and has ZERO ability to deliver in the clutch. Jason Terry still plays NO defense and is equally ty when the game is on the line. The Mavs have NO offensive options besides running the ball through Dirk. Josh Howard still has NO discipline and is an immature punk who gets frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the first game of the year and has to throw an elbow.

I know you're frustrated by some of these moronic Mav fans on this forum, but this is just nonsense. I generally agree with much of your assessments of teams & players usually but don't stoop to just making stuff up (other than Dirk not playing D ). Dirk has been incredibly clutch the last 2 seasons. There's even a video on you tube showing many of his game winning/tieing shots he's made during that span. I'm still amazed that Spur's fans challenge how clutch he is after he basically ended their season last year. Dirk missed one important free throw in the finals and that makes him a choker??? And Terry...Jet is the one guy that is even more clutch than Dirk on the team. He's got ice in his veins. About Howard, while some of what you said was true last year, he's moved on and is playing at an allstar level. Other GMs have mentioned that he's easily the most improved player on Dallas this season and is a borderline allstar right now.

Just ignore some of the ignorant Mav fans on here (there are a few for sure)!!! They (like several Spur fans on here) just like to spout off worthless crap for the of it.

[JMarkJohns]

JmarkJohns saying things I agree with. What do you know its like -20 here in Phoenix.

It's been your loss the entire time

We've never been that different, save for me calling it like it is, and you hoping for what it could be. That was the main difference from the beginning. Unless you're a Sarver apologist who doesn't think that him passing on Marcus Williams to save a few bucks didn't hurt this team, both now, in terms of skill and ability, but also longterm, in terms of financially.

Then we're still at odds..

[AZLouis]

Me thinks most Mavericks fans are a little too smug for their own good. Last I checked, you were still in the same boat as the Suns... As in 0-fer with regards to a le.

Suns defeating Dallas in 2004-05 didn't ensure that they would in 2005-06.

See if your finite minds can grasp where I'm going with this... True, you beat both the Spurs and the Suns last year. As far as I know, last year has very little bearing on this year, 'specially since both the Spurs and Suns are very different teams than the ones the Mavericks beat.

It's one thing to think your a contender. It's another thing entirely to act as king, when you're no closer than the team you are belittling.

Yours is a good team with great potential. Still, like the Suns they have their flaws and, like the Suns, they haven't a banner giving cause to their overconfidence.

Being realistic is the best approach when your team hasn't a le for its fans to stand on.

Good stuff JMark. As always.

[da_suns_fan__]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.

[mabber]

Suns @Mavs on 28th and @Pistons on 31st.

I doubt the streak survives to 2007, but if it does, it will be most impressive.

I hope the streak lasts until the 28th as I'll be at that game and would be a fun game to watch.

[mabber]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.

See there Ron Mexico and JMarks, there are some moronic Sun's fans as well-lol

[da_suns_fan__]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.

[mabber]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.

I'm not going to argue your points as it's a waste of time, but to say that no one is the least bit worried about Dallas and that the Suns are just too much for the Mavs is a joke. Also, why don't you check the records between the 2 teams the last 2 years before saying the Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas-lol

[Leetonidas]

I am glad to see Amare playing well though. It would've been a terrible loss for the league if he couldn't get back on track.

[JMarkJohns]

See there Ron Mexico and JMarks, there are some moronic Sun's fans as well-lol

Yes... And like those of other teams, when they can't be reasoned with, they are better off ignored. I've tried and have been called every name in the book for my effort. , I've even been said to be Cubby. Those Suns fans from PHXsuns.net will understand that reference. That's a little far, no?

Suns are 10-10 vs. Mavericks in their last 20 games, I believe. To say they "have their way" with Dallas and "aren't worried" is lunacy...

[mavsfan1000]

Though the mavs started out the season slowly they along with Phoenix have been playing lights out for the last 20 games. Dallas has really picked up their defense lately though. Harris is the key to Dallas's defense by putting pressure on other teams best guard. He even did a good job on Kobe. Putting Harris on Nash will hopefully allow Dallas to not have to double team. Anthony Johnson is another option to put on Nash. Dallas should be able to dominate the boards which is where I think the mavs have the slight edge in a series. Phoenix might shoot a higher percentage but Dallas will get more shots.

[PhxDog]

Opposing fans' view of the Suns, by month.


February: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."

June: "Wow, the Suns were actually looking pretty good there, even after Raja Bell went down. Put a healthy Stoudemire on that team, they're definitely contenders and probably favorites.

(Un)fortunately, Amare is done--finished!!--and the Suns will never be able to overcome his albatross contract. Too bad for them, I suppose."

December: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."


Eh, we'll see. For the first time in a long time, I like my team's chances...

[spursreport]

they were a far better defensive team, had an intimidating interior presence in Shaq, and could actually REBOUND the ing ball. the Suns have NONE of that. i never said anything about being amazing defensively. but you at least have to play an ounce of defense, which the Suns dont.

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.

[dirk4mvp]

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.

Who said the Mavs didn't have flaws?


Teams have gotten physical with the Mavs. See: Spurs, Second Round, NBA Playoffs '06. The Suns were even physical to an extent.


Where do you people come up with some of this stuff?

[RonMexico]

I was RIGHT about to make a reply to your previous post, until i saw this, and realized how much of a dumb you are. im not even going to waste my time trying to prove how wrong you are to such a dip comment like that.

Actually, it's not a dip comment - it's pretty common knowledge around the league. I'll give you a few links to mull over and see where you stand. Dirk's "new defense" is just to slap down at the ball like Karl Malone would and then scream like a when he gets called for it. Jason Terry doesn't play any defense at all, he goes under screens all the time and allows open jumpers and has no knowledge of how to play the passing lanes. And since regular season play doesn't matter to you, Dirk is not clutch when it counts - i.e. the 4th quarters of the NBA Finals where he would chunk up goose eggs... real clutch.

[mavsfan1000]

Haslem is an underrated defender. His defense on Dirk was superb. He had the speed and strength to bother Dirk. He also shut down Rasheed Wallace the round before. If there is a Dirk stopper in the league it is Haslem. Posey wasn't bad either on defense.

[stretch]

You obviously don't watch too many Suns games. I'll give you credit for no rebounding... They are a mediocre, to average rebounding team. Or at least have been for much of the season. It'll be interesting to see if their recent improvement can remain against good rebounding teams like Dallas.

However, if you watched the Suns, you'd know they do play defense. In fact, their defensive plan is rather effective. They swarm. They aren't big, so traditional defense isn't of use to them. What they have is length and quickness and they use it as well as any team uses their size. They force many, many first-possession misses. In fact, last year, they had one of te top-5 first-possession defensive FG% in the NBA. They get a good amount of steals and blocks to boot.

Their biggest problem, rebounding, unfortunately stems from their defensive strategy. Because they swarm, or rotate to the purists, they are constantly out of position for rebounds. They aren't necessarily within rebounding distance of the basket, let alone within arms reach of a man to box out. Because of this, they give up a HUGE amount of offensive rebounds, most of which end up as easy putbacks. These putbacks affect their PPG, their PPG differential and their defensive FG%.

I'm not sure if there's anything that can be done about it. That's why I'm so anxious for tonight's game vs. a good rebounding team in Denver and then against Dallas, a very good rebounding team.

During this streak, they've made strides. How much is them, and how much was the compe ion is yet to be known.

However, for you to flat out say they don't play defense is wrong. Maybe last year, when they had no frontcourt depth and couldn't afford fouls, they didn't play much, but this year they have been pretty solid.

They will always have a high PPG allowed bbecause of their style of play, so just looking at their final scores won't tell you much.

They have issues. I'm not denying that. Still, they are not the only contending team with them. That was the point. Last year was last year. Early season was early season. Now is now. Things change. In the NBA, they do so often. You can't use last year's success as a foundation for gloating this season (unless you win the le, which you failed to do) as none of the teams are the same.

While not entirely you, many Maverick fans have been forgetting this and belittling other fans/teams. They are en led to root for their team. Remember, it wasn't long ago when your Mavericks were the team routinely getting trounced in the Semi's...

they do NOT play much defense at all. the Mavericks a few years ago, when they lost to the Spurs in the WCF, were actually a pretty decent defensive team... statisically. they allowed only 95 ppg, and .438% shooting. however, would anyone that watched the Mavericks even say that they were even a DECENT defensive team? not at all. a lot of it was because they intimidated crappy opponents. teams would just see how good their offense was, and think that they had to outscore them, and would end up failing and taking all kinds of dumb shots. but smart teams like the Spurs and Lakers know exactly how to beat the Mavericks. they knew that you could let them jump to a nice lead, but they would eventually get back into the game, because the Mavs relied too much on the jumpshot, and that they (spurs and lakers) could play defense and rebound, but the Mavericks couldn't. its the same thing with the Suns. they intimidate ty opponents who are stupid and think that the only way to beat them is to outscore them, thus leading to a number of quick, dumb shots, and stupid mistakes. but teams that play defense and rebound, like the Mavericks and Spurs, know that they can just play their style, and eventually the Suns will fall apart, due to their reliance on jump shots, and their inability to defend and rebound.

the fact is, if you cannot either rebound the ball, or play defense, you cannot win. despite the fact that you said you think the Suns play defense (which it COMPLETELY wrong), you admitted that they are not a good rebounding team. rebounding is a part of defense too. rebounding prevents your opponents from having a chance to score, which is ultimately what defense is. you play defense to keep your opponent from scoring. if you let them get offensive boards and easy putbacks, then you basically are not playing good defense. you HAVE to be a good rebounding team to win games. every le winning team has always had 2 things in common... they could play defense and rebound the ball well. some had great offenses, others had ty offenses. but they ALL could play defense and rebound. and as much as you may think it will (as I did previously with the Mavs), it will never change. the Suns will NOT win a le, playing the way they do. they can get to the WCF 10 years in a row, but it wont mean anything, because they will never win a le until they play defense and rebound.

[mabber]

Haslem is an underrated defender. His defense on Dirk was superb. He had the speed and strength to bother Dirk. He also shut down Rasheed Wallace the round before. If there is a Dirk stopper in the league it is Haslem. Posey wasn't bad either on defense.

I agree with this. Haslem really did a good job on Dirk. He was kinda like Bowen used to be on Dirk before Dirk figured out how to play against him. Dirk never figured Haslem out that entire series. I think Bowen is a better defender than Haslem but Dirk just hasn't played against him enough. Marion used to bother Dirk as well until they had played enough times for Dirk to figure out how to attack him.

[stretch]

I guarantee you no one in Phoenix is the slightest bit concerned about Dallas. The Suns have had no problems winning against Dallas the last couple of years. The Suns are just too much for them. Dallas can only hope for injuries.

The Suns had too many injuries last year and ran out of gas in the playoffs...Dallas was just at the right place at the right time...end of story.

I guarantee you that the Suns will not beat the Mavericks or Spurs in the postseason, unless one of those teams has a major injury. Most people in Dallas were not scared of the Spurs a few years ago, but unfortunately, we were wrong, and most realized that unless you can play defense and rebound, you cannot win an NBA le. After this season's faliure in the playoffs, the Suns organization and fans will realize that too.

[RonMexico]

I haven't mentioned his name all year. But as for his rebounding - yes, it has always been his hallmark; he had exceptional rebound rates in all his years in Washington and Orlando.

Your point about some 0&0 game is a non sequitur: all players go into slumps. It doesn't mean that they've lost the skills.

Amare Stoudemire has always been an average rebounder at best, even for an undersized power forward. That is not something that changes at his age. He may have stretches where he becomes an above-average to good rebounder with his improved fundamentals, as Antonio McDyess has, but he will never be a great one.


Was it you who was arguing that Steve Kerr was a better player than Rodman? Jesus.

Amare getting 25 and 10? I'll take that. That's all he needs to do - must mean that he has a rebounding skill and has learned to exploit it to get an extra 2 boards per game. My point was that Wallace went into a self-induced slump based on his own immaturity and feeling of "being wronged" by the team management. That led to a lack of effort, which is the basis of good rebounding. He starts giving double the effort he did before and he's pulling down 27 boards against the Bucks... that doesn't just happen because of a fluke or because he lucked into getting the ball - it's because he worked hard to get in position and box people out for those rebounds... unlike when he got 0 earlier in the season. What else do I have to say to prove to you that rebounding is more than just a "God-given skill"?

And I said Rodman and Kerr were both keys to championship teams and neither should be discredited for their contributions. Never said he was better - but I did say he was a better shooter than Rodman. Dirk wasn't drafted because he might be able to "learn how to shoot" - he was drafted because he might be able to learn how to rebound to complement the great perimeter game he had coming into the league.

[stretch]

Didn't the Suns win three straight games (two in Dallas) before Raja went down? They were all on national T.V., surely you remember.

The Suns get ANY SHOT THEY WANT against the Mavs. Seriously, many of the Suns best individual and team games the past couple of years have come against them.

Honestly, the Suns can get any shot they want against any team in the NBA. unfortunately for them, good teams can get any shot they want against the Suns as well, only easier, because the Suns dont play defense and rebound.

[stretch]

Opposing fans' view of the Suns, by month.


February: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."

June: "Wow, the Suns were actually looking pretty good there, even after Raja Bell went down. Put a healthy Stoudemire on that team, they're definitely contenders and probably favorites.

(Un)fortunately, Amare is done--finished!!--and the Suns will never be able to overcome his albatross contract. Too bad for them, I suppose."

December: "Suns are overrated, a gimmick, no defense, will fall apart in the playoffs, etc., etc."


Eh, we'll see. For the first time in a long time, I like my team's chances...

people said similar things in 02-03, when the Mavs still gave the Spurs a fight, despite losing Dirk. unfortunately, they still believed they could win without defense, and ended up getting beat in the first round the next season.

[stretch]

You talk about the suns flaws but what about the Mavs? Come playoff time lets see if they truly recover from last years finals. We wont know that till late April/May if those demons come back to haunt them. Lets also see when teams get VERY physical with them if they can adjust to it. It isnt just about rebounding and defense in terms of winning it all but also you have terms of mental and physical toughness along with some inside scoring (you still lack this) which have all been the Mavs cryptonite. Your team isnt perfect either and you do have flaws that should be of some concern.

we arent talking about the Mavs, because this thread WASNT about the Mavs. it was about the Suns. hence being led "Suns". way to read, numnuts.

and if you want to get into it about flaws, the Spurs have plenty flaws them selves. then again, EVERY ING TEAM IN NBA HISTORY had flaws. no one is perfect. the fact is, the Mavs and Spurs have the fewest flaws, compared to all other teams in the NBA right now, therefore they are the two best teams in the league.

[RonMexico]

I guarantee you that the Suns will not beat the Mavericks or Spurs in the postseason, unless one of those teams has a major injury. Most people in Dallas were not scared of the Spurs a few years ago, but unfortunately, we were wrong, and most realized that unless you can play defense and rebound, you cannot win an NBA le. After this season's faliure in the playoffs, the Suns organization and fans will realize that too.

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a le.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a le" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dip comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.