Popcorn also has per game and per 48. You can just click it.
Bowen's offense ranks about 7-10 on the list of things the spurs need to change or improve. His rebounding is about 3-4 on the list.
Spurs are in dire need of a center or power forward who can rebound and get cheap baskets. Then followed right after that they need a legit backup PG.
Ouch- those don't bode well for the Matt Bonner fan club.
Mavs send George to the Spurs for Bowen? I don't know...
I think Bowen isn't doing that good because we don't have a consistent center. Consistent meaning the player and quality of play covering the 5 spot. I don't recall him having a so-so year since he's been with us. He had Dave then Rasho. I'm not comparing Rasho to Dave. I think he's overcompensating for lack of a true, consistent center and not concentrating on his game that he's know for.
I went to the site and found some interesting infomation you didn't present.
The column in the far right only tells you the +/- POINTS Differential when he's in the game, usually with the Big Three so that stat is somewhat biased in his favor. Besides, it's not very applicable when you figure that in some blowout games our first team is out and the scrubs in while the other team has its best out there trying to comeback.
Much more interesting is the stats/rating you don't mention:
Help Value (which is rebounds, blocks, steals, TOs per minute) Of all the roster, he is better than only Butler and is a very far behind most of the other players.
Productivity (which adds Points to Help Value) Again, he is the lowest rated Spur with the exception of Butler. Outside the Big Three, most of the rest are in the .50s range. Bowen is .36
Efficiency Rating: Adds up everything in the stats. Once again, Bowen is next to dead last Butler.
These stats say he's behind Beno and Williams, not to mention the rest of the bench, in every category.
Stats aren't everything, but its pretty obvious that Bowen isn't giving us much but defense. And when you are giving up 20-30 points differential against a great player, I'd rather let that guy try for 50 and wear himself out defending his counterpoint on the Spurs for a change.
No one ever mentions that most teams leave Bowen alone because he isn't much of a threat. They can afford to play 5 on our 4 and let him have his occasional 3.
I like Bowen's defense--but this site was an eye opener that confirmed what I'd been intuitively thinking. Bowen's defensive abilities may not be good enough to overcome his other liabilities.
I would never expect Bowen to have good numbers in Productivity or Efficiency Rating.
The guy was asking about +/-, which is what I posted. Everyone knows that Bowen is a bad rebounder and a limited scorer.
When/If there's ever a guy on the Spurs worth taking Bowen's place in the starting lineup, I'd agree with everything you said. But right now, the Spurs don't have that guy. For three years, everyone here has been rallying for a Bowen replacement to eventually take over. The Spurs haven't found that guy.
But right now, I think the swing spots are hardly a worry compared to the other holes in the Spurs lineup - starting center, backup point guard.
Great post. Bowen is more of a liability now since the spurs are getting very little offensively from the 5 and the bench. His defense does not make up for his deficiencies in other areas.
Bowen's so far behind everyone else in those ratings that you'd think we'd be giving some time to Williams and maybe starting Finley. I know that sounds ridiculous but my God, he's such a liability in every other phase of the game. With the higher scoring allowed by the rules changes, his defensive ability has less value.
It's not like he's a drop-dead shut down guy any more. , let Kobe try to go for 80--and get their team out of sync.
And there's a reason why Bowen is often found alone in the corner for his occasional three. The other teams are ignoring him and playing their five on our four, trying to take our Big Three out of their game.
I see the old Bowen sucks crowd is Back out. Sickening.
It took stats to tell you that?
Bowen is a lockdown perimeter defender. That's it. He's not going to do anything else for you. It's been that way since he's gotten here and it'll be that way until he leaves.
Bowen has been good enough to help this team win two championships. He's still shutting people down at the same rate as he has over the years. If he's lost a step, it hasn't effected his bottomline yet. All of his defensive productivity stats are the same or better than they've been in recent years.
Bowen is not the problem. Just like Tim, Tony and Manu aren't the problem.
You'd think Spurs fans would be able to notice the s in the armor. There are a lot of them (backup PG, center, backup center, backup SF, etc.), but instead Spurs fans try to pin the blame on one of the few things this team has going right.
Bruce is great.
We need CENTERS
Bruce is not the problem
I don't think he sucks. He's just the focal point of a problem at SF that everyone has complained about for years. And when you look at the comparative stats to the rest of our players, it is an eye opener.
On most teams, most of whom have a better all-round player at that position, he'd be a defensive specialist from the bench. I don't know of another one-dimensional defensive SF that starts in this league.
The lack of rebounding, offense and defense from our changes at the Center position simply makes our other deficiencies at SF more glaring and harder to cover up in games.
+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48
And Bowen is the problem?
Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay.
Go Fin!!
People have complained about getting a backup Long Small Forward to eventually replace Bowen. I haven't seen many people complaining about Bowen throughout the years.
His stats are better than they were during the championship years. Of course his offensive and efficiency stats are going to look ugly. He doesn't do anything but stand in the corner and shoot threes.
But the Spurs don't need anything else out of a small forward. They have the best power forward of all-time and two All-Star guards. You can't trot five players out there who need to get the ball to be effective.
I don't know another SF in the league who has multiple championship rings. I also don't know any other SF in the league who have been first or second team All-Defense as many times as Bowen has.
The Spurs win championships with their defense. Bowen is their best perimeter defender. Without Bowen, this team's defense would be horrible.
No one has addressed the issue of why the other teams leave Bowen alone, preferring to play their five on our four--or maybe our three if their defensive scheme is designed to concentrate on our Big Three.
So his lack of offensive capability makes it more difficult for our Big Three to operate as effectively as they might. That isn't a stat that can be qualitatively judged with any accuracy, but it is a problem.
What the Finley?+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48
And Bowen is the problem?
Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay.
Maybe he is really on Cuban's pay roll.
All part of Cuban's plan...Maybe he is really on Cuban's pay roll.
+/- stats merely show the point differential when you play your minutes. In Bowens case, all his minutes are with the Big Three so of course his +/- pont differential figures are going to be high.+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48
And Bowen is the problem?
Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay.
He never plays without those guys because his other liabilities are so high that he'd really drag down our productivity and efficiency if you played him with the bench players.
Those +/- stats are the least reliable method of evaluation in my opinion.
A) If that was the case, then way isn't Oberto's +/- better? Bowen plays a lot of time with one or two members of the Big Three. Oberto, over the last ten games, has played almost all his minutes with the Big Three.
B) Explain the following stats:
When Paired With Robert Horry
Bowen +47
Duncan +26
Parker +20
Ginobili +2
When Paired With Francisco Elson
Bowen +13
Duncan +10
Parker +7
Ginobili -10
When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28
When Paired With Brent Barry
Duncan +44
Bowen +31
Parker +26
Ginobili +25
So when paired with the four main bench players, Bowen's +/- is higher than that of any of the Big Three.
But I thought Bowen's +/- were inflated because of playing with the Big Three?
Guess not.
We dont need offense, we could get it from Tony, Manu and Duncan.
This IS a great post and confirms what I've been also feeling intuatively. I'm glad this thread has evolved into a cerebral discussion. So leaving out trades and acquisitions out of it (keeping our current line-up as is). Would we be better off shaving some of Bruce's time to someone else to provide a little more horsepower on the offensive end?
Slight tangent but remeber a few seasons back when Barry was our backup point during the playoffs....has this been discussed as another potential tweak?
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