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Is this the same Raja Bell that was getting beat to spots on the floor by Michael Finley a week or so ago?
Uh yeah ok...
"Anyway, the only way to really know what Bowen brings is to watch Spurs games. Many nights this year, Bowen has owned his opponent and then the guy has gone off for 10+ when Bowen is resting. And then the forum fills up with people saying Bowen didn't do his job. Those people are just box score watchers" Kori Ellis
Interesting. I've wondered about how you watch the game when you put up that tagline about "Kapono had 11 rebounds...yes, Kapono" or something like that. It was an unusual enough stat that you made a special note of it while apparently not noting the reason or the implications.
Since I don't live in SA anymore and the Spurs aren't on national TV that often, I was watching that game very closely and especially the play of Bruce because there had been some back and forth about his play in another thread.
The fact is that when the Spurs were in their half court offense, Kapono played way off Bruce during the whole game, spending most of his time near the paint and helping out to prevent TP and Manu from driving as well as working against our center/forward for rebounding position.
In effect, the Heat was playing four men, man-to-man, with Kapono playing a zone near the lane with at least 12-15 feet between him and Bowen. Meanwhile, Bruce remained camped out 23 feet from the basket waiting for an attempt to miss a three.
It was obviously a coaching strategy by Miami: Take away the Spurs offense and let Bowen beat us with threes if he can. I think Bowen may have scored 6 points for the night. Since Kapono wound up with 11 rebounds and the lane was clogged for our drivers, the strategy worked beautifully and neither Bowen or Pop made any adjustment.
Even on offense, a player's decisions about how to play an opponent and when to adjust have defensive implications. Every defensive rebound by an opponent means another offensive opportunity for the opponent and one less for the Spurs. How many points came off of those unexpected 11 'gift' rebounds to Kapono? Could Bruce have changed that by more movement or even a futile effort to go battle Kapono near the basket for some of those rebounds.
Not that Bruce has the build to get in an battle with the giants for offensive rebounds, but he also doesn't have the short jumper to pull anyone away from the lane if his threes aren't going.
I call it the Kapono Konundrum. What do the Spurs do if the other team says we'll let Bowen beat us with 3s--if he can? Because we'll take the rest of their offense away and get more rebounds by playing five on four while Bowen takes himself out of the game by sitting on his ass in the corner.
Bruce is a great defender, but a role player. There are strategies that confound a role player when an all around game is needed.
Is this the same Raja Bell that was getting beat to spots on the floor by Michael Finley a week or so ago?
Uh yeah ok...
I think I noted several times after that game about Bowen's lack of rebounding (and the other problems on the glass). But I also noted, and Pop re-iterated it on the Pop show recently, that by design Bowen (and the rest of the Spurs small players) are not supposed to go to the offensive glass at all. The only Spurs players that are instructed to hit the O boards are the bigs.
The smalls are supposed to instantly get back in transition. Pop says that he (and the coaching staff) are fully aware that the ramifications are that the Spurs get less offensive rebounds but they think that their stellar transition defense makes up for it.
seeing as he improves as a shooter in the playoffs, i think the Spurs are gonna be ok, and if the Nuggets try that formation on D, then they will get burnt.I call it the Kapono Konundrum. What do the Spurs do if the other team says we'll let Bowen beat us with 3s--if he can? Because we'll take the rest of their offense away and get more rebounds by playing five on four while Bowen takes himself out of the game by sitting on his ass in the corner.
Bruce is a great defender, but a role player. There are strategies that confound a role player when an all around game is needed.
Difference: Bell will never see a Finals. And he's jealous of Kobe too which is a laugh.
And for the 05-06 year :
Opponents Points per 100 Possessions :
Bowen on the court - 101.3
Bowen off the court - 98.6
Barry on the court - 97.9
Barry off the court - 101.7
Last year, Pop used Bowen differently. If the other team's main scorer was out, Bowen was out. No questions asked.
This year, Bowen comes in and out depending on a more set basis. His numbers are no longer skewed because of always being on the court with the other team's best player and sitting when they are on the bench.
Fact: Bell has already played in the Finals (2001), averaging almost 16 mpg for the Sixers in that series. Try again.
hopefully, if the Spurs play Dallas he will get to focus on just Josh Howard and once in a while, Dirk.
Not Dirk 50% and Howard 50%.
Yeah played quite well in those finals.
Got a decent contract with Dallas the next two years. THen Utah really upped him, then Phoenix after 05 made him the "ginobili stopper"
Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who.
But I'm sure Bowen will get shifted a lot of the Spurs play the Mavs - JHo, Dirk, Terry, Stack.
I'm not quite sure that a coaching decision for Bowen et al not to worry about the offensive boards will work against quality well-coached teams if they think Bowen's offense is our weakness.
Good coaches and good teams spot weaknesses and exploit them. That is an offensive strategy. We use Bruce to attack the other teams strengths--eg. their best offensive small. That is a defensive strategy. Does a good offensive strategy beat a good defensive strategy> that is the question that will be answered in the playoffs.
Meanwhile, our glaring weakness most of this year has been Bowen's 'normal' low point production along with his other low stats. It doesn't matter if he shoots 3s 100%, if he only scores 6ppg.
The original theme of this thread was Bell v. Bowen, not Bowen by himself nor Bowen vs. Kobe, et al. It's somewhat difficult to compare because Bell is a tad shorter and plays a different position although the both guard the best small on the other team.
I repeat: Because of his age, skills, and all around play on both offense and defense, I'd trade Bowen for Bell even up in a heartbeat. I'd also throw in some 'boot' in the form of other players if they'd take any of our scrubs.
Of course, then we'd have to move Manu to SF or something to make the adjustment with Bell at SG. And that might not be too bad come to think of it in a small ball line up of Bell, TP, Manu, TD and either Finley/Barry with the other one and Bonner/Horry/Elson/Oberto/Vaughn/White/Ely in reserve.
Well, it would be IDEAL, if Elson could do it, but the dudes a hack machine, and one Dirk pumpfake Im afraid he'll go for.Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who
But shoot, we thought hed stink vs Detroit and he played them fantastic.
Dudes the epitome of an enigma.
Call me crazy, but Bonner, when focused, plays decent defense against a big such as Dirk.
Will Pop try it? More than likely not for some reason, but Bonner looked good I thought against Portland defending their long forwards, and I don't think hed embarass himself vs Irk.
Also Oberto is DECENT in small doses.
Horry, if in playoff mode, IMO, guards him the best.
I'm not sure, but Pop seems to think transition D is much more important than O boards.I'm not quite sure that a coaching decision for Bowen et al not to worry about the offensive boards will work against quality well-coached teams if they think Bowen's offense is our weakness.
It is against a team like Phoenix or Dallas thats for sure.
I don't understand what you are getting out. First of all, the Spurs not going after offensive boards has won them three championships. It can't be argued whether it's an effective tactic, because it has proven to be so.
And well-coached team's know that Bowen's offense isn't the Spurs' weakness. The Spurs have never lost a series because teams have dared Bowen to beat them. Because the teams that have tried that strategy against the Spurs have all lost.
The way to beat the Spurs is to not leave Bowen open. Phil Jackson and AJ know this. Bowen isn't one to choke, especially in the playoffs. You don't keep a man on him at all-times, the Spurs will find him open and they'll win.
Sure, Bowen isn't going to win you anything taking the ball off the dribble. But those who say that the Spurs play 4-on-5 on offense or whatever don't really have a clue on how or why the Spurs lose in the playoffs.
In games five and six last year against the Mavs, Bowen had one field goal attempt in 69 minutes. It wasn't because the Spurs never passed it to him, it was because AJ knows that Bowen isn't someone you dare to beat you.
To beat the Spurs, you want TP and Manu shooting jumpers. You want to throw a bunch of double teams at Tim. You want to see if Finley or Barry will shrivel up under pressure. You try to expose the bench and make the Spurs go small. You don't leave Bowen open in the corner.
The Spurs glaring weakness has been Bowen's offense? He's right around his scoring output when the Spurs have won their two championships with him. Bowen's scoring (or lack of scoring) doesn't even crack the top 20 weaknesses for the Spurs.
Spurs fans don't understand the concept of a fifth option. The Spurs have three premiere scorers. Manu, Tim and Tony are all in the top 25 in the league in points per minute. Then after that, you have guys like Finley and Barry who put up a fair amount of shots.
As a team, the Spurs are third in the league in points per possession, behind only the Suns and the Mavs. How much more offensively potent do Spurs fans want the team to be?
It's not as if Bowen averaging six points is holding the team back. If he averaged more, it'd just be less shots for someone else. It's not like if Bowen was replaced by a wing who averaged 15 points per game that the Spurs would become some offensive Phoenix Suns style juggernaut. All it means is that the shots would be redistributed.
And really, being third in the league in points per possession pretty much categorizes the Spurs as an offensive juggernaut. They score more per possession than teams like the Warriors and Nuggets. I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure this is the most potent Spurs offensive unit in the Tim Duncan era.
Spurs fans amaze me with their ability to focus on meaningless stats that don't begin to tell the whole picture. Instead of looking at Bowen's points per game, look at how the team averages more points per possession when he's on the floor. Instead of whining about a lack of steal or blocks, look at how the Spurs average 10 less points given up per 100 possessions with Bowen on the court (or how the Spurs give up only 85 points per 48 minutes that Bowen is on the court). Instead of whining about how Bowen doesn't rebound, look at how the Spurs are a better rebounding team with Bowen on the court.
Last I looked, Bowen was second in the NBA in +/-. Yet Spurs fans would vote him off the team if they could.
Like I've said before, people won't realize how much Bowen means to what the Spurs have done the last half decade until he's gone.
Seeing as I staind myself a Bowen hater, I wont say much.
But I would rather have him than Bell.
They're both great defenders, but I think the best man on man defender in the NBA is Shane Battier. He REALLY gives Kobe a hard time, and gives every other offensive threat player a hard time. Last time against the Rockets they showed a stat of Kobe's shot attempts on the diffferent players that had guarded him the entire game, and Kobe's shots on Battier was around 8-24.
that leads to this question : are the rockets a threat to the top 3 teams in the West?
I would say that, but I don't think they have the experience to beat any of the top three. In the playoffs, it's rare that you come out of nowhere and beat a experienced team. Just to say though, I'm about 90% sure the Spurs and Suns have their number, but I could POSSIBLY see them beating the Mavericks..
We'll see if they can beat the Jazz though. Both teams are pretty evenly matched, last time they faced off it went down to the wire with the Jazz winning.
No he's not.
Man this guy is jokes.
Bowen is easily a better defender than Bell, but I guess Bell's defensive efforts are magnified by playing next to El Matador, Steve Nash.
I think Bowen should just guard JHo the whole game, see if he can take him out of his rhythm. Parker can handle Terry (although Terry will probably get his anyway). If we take JHo out of his rhythm, that would translate into a win IMO. JHo is what gets the Mavs started at the beginning of games and he provides a spark for them when they need it. At this point, I'd still put Elson on Dirk, that way the rest of the Spurs could focus on the other Mavs players. Elson won't stop Dirk, but he's quick enough to stay with him. As long as we shut down the rest of the Mavs players, we are fine. It worked in the first half of the last game vs. the Mavs, and when the Spurs got away from that plan, the Mavs came back. Surprise.Yeah, hopefully someone else can get the primary Dirk assignment. Although I'm not sure who.
But I'm sure Bowen will get shifted a lot of the Spurs play the Mavs - JHo, Dirk, Terry, Stack.
Bowen is way better than bell
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