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Because they both still live in Houston?
Because they won their first championship with him?
Because he hadn't had this post season yet?
The Big Fundamental
The Dream
Again, then why do the 2 common teammates of the 2 cite Hakeem as the better player? If anyone is going to be cognizant of who the better team player was and the better teammate was, it's got to be guys who actually played and traveled and went to war with both players.
Why did Robert Horry have his best years of his career with Hakeem, better than he had with either Shaq, Kobe, or TD? Perhaps because Hakeem made him a better player.
Why did Clyde Drexler who was considered on a steep decline as a basketball player have a resurgence in 1995 when reunited with Hakeem? Because Hakeem made him a better player.
Why did Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell, 2 journeyman guards, have their NBA careers effectively ended when they weren't on Hakeem's teams anymore? Perhaps because he made them better players.
TD didnt have a monopoly on making others around him better. Guys before him have done and guys after him will as well.
Because they both still live in Houston?
Because they won their first championship with him?
Because he hadn't had this post season yet?
The question was if you wanted to start a franchise, who would you take first.
I would take the guy who in his prime was the best player. That is Hakeem. On both ends of the court.
I would answer the same if you asked "Tim or Shaq". Shaq was more dominant than either Tim OR Hakeem in his prime.
If you're asking who you'd take first if you were the GM and could pick from any player, I think it goes without say that you are picking from the better players in their primes. Which in this case goes:
1) Shaq
2) Hakeem
3)Timmy
I think the way you are interpreting this question sounds like "which player was on the team which had the most success" which is a different question than who'd you'd pick if you were starting a team.
The one thing I do agree with you on is that Tim Duncan is playing GREAT basketball right now. I thought he played phenomenal last year in the playoffs as well against Dallas. As a fan of postplay going back to the Moses/Hakeem/Kareem days, it's beautiful to watch. He has an aura of dominance around him now which is very Hakeem-like and which reminds of his 99 run when he looked like a beast. I'm amazed that Duncan is as good defensively as he is this postseason given his age.
But I'd still place him 3rd behind Hakeem and O'Neal! I think for some reason the contributions of other Spurs like Parker/Manu/Bowen seem to be under the radar. Some act like this is Tim and a bunch of average players. It's certainly not.
Say what you want but by the time Hakeem won his le it was his 3rd major final...
And the Rockets don't make the Finals in 86 if Sampson doesn't hit the shot to do it.
Hakeem's teams didn't do unless he had talent.
And we here in SA appreciate both Elie and Horry for their roles in les, and they never even played for us at the same time.
And any RocketFan that doesn't give Sam Cassell an assload of credit for both of those les...as in, being the ing closer, isn't a true RocketFan.
[QUOTE=bobbyjoe]Again, then why do the 2 common teammates of the 2 cite Hakeem as the better player? If anyone is going to be cognizant of who the better team player was and the better teammate was, it's got to be guys who actually played and traveled and went to war with both players.
I'll say (and I might be wrong) because by the time Horry went to LA, his playing time shrunk due to ability, age or whatever. When he played in Houston with Hakeem he was still pretty young and had more of a role than just backup late game shooter. Again, I may be wrong but that's my opinion.
Clyde's last couple years with Portland were a disaster because of his dislike for management. He was in a much better place mentally when he went to Houston because Trader Bob Whitsitt basically did to him what the Boston Red Sox did to Roger Clemens. And we all know how that went.
If I remember correctly, Kenny Smith was at the tail end of his career at that point. As for Maxwell, I can't really say.
I'll say your take holds some water. I'll also admit I have a huge Spurs bias.
I'm going by memory as far as Hakeem. And since he stopped playing several years ago and Duncan is still playing, my thought process goes toward what's more fresh on my mind.
But I do remember Hakeem whining and pulling a Randy Moss whenever he wasn't getting his way. I've never seen Duncan do that.
Like I said, your take holds water but my opinion is still that Duncan would be a better player with whom to build your team around.
Take that as you will.
IIRC, both Horry and Elie left Houston under some bitter terms and were pretty unhappy with the franchise. Horry was traded and Elie wasn't wanted back.
Horry's comments came while he was a teammate of Duncan. If anything as a player, you're not going to want to piss off a fellow teammate.
I think the right answer is "because that's the way they honestly feel"
And ing Clyde Drexler was good enough to get his own team to the finals...how the can you say he wasn't a factor?
I wish you guys didn't have Drexler in 95...ya'll wouldn't have made it out of the first round.
It's a loyalty thing...I am not entirely sure they are being objective...and as I said...this post season has a lot to do with it.
Duncan is playing at an extremely high level this post season...more consistent than Hakeem did...even when Hakeem had his 2 year peak.
Let's see what they say, after this post season.
But again...Duncan has done a better job of carrying teams to the post season...and he's been more of a team player....
Oh...and damn straight I take Gervin over Kobe...
What in the is wrong with you?
What has Kobe done on his own?
Rape?
Run his coach and C out of town and blow up his ing dynasty?
Shoot his team out of the 04 finals?
Miss the playoffs?
Get punked by teams the Doug Moe Spurs would have scored 175ppg against?
Struggle to shoot over 40%?
Win a scoring le jacking up 3 times per many shots per game as Gervin did winning his?
You think if you stick Shaq on some of Gervin's teams they don't destroy the NBA?
You're bloody insane.
The only shooting guards I take over Gervin are Jordan and West.
Glad to see you admit the bias. These Randy Moss type comments are really bizarre and some reaches/distortions. We're talking about a guy who was pretty widely considered one of the classiest NBA superstars on and off the court, much like Tim Duncan. I have yet to see a professional athlete refuse to accept an MVP trophy individually and instead ask his entire team accept the award like Hakeem did in 1994 when he was MVP.
I believe Charley Rosen a few weeks back had an "all time nice guys" list and both Hakeem and DUncan were on it.
As for Kenny Smith, he was only 30 years old when Houston cut him. Hardly at the tail end of the line at only 30 yrs old but without Hakeem to make him look good, he hardly played in the NBA after that and basically fell off the cliff.
Ok you got me on Kenny. When did he retire?
Not if you're a GM in San Antonio you don't...
Shaq would leave when we couldn't pay him...
Ditto Hakeem.
Bull ...
Kenny Smith tore it up the year Hakeem got his face cracked...lead the Rockets on the longest winning streak in team history.
Kenny Smith was a talented dude....only man to ever be in both the Dunk Contest and the 3 Point Contest in the Same All Star Game.
Uh, fact check here.
In 1986, the Rockets led the series 3-1 before Sampson's shot and the game was tied. Even if Sampson misses, LA has to win in overtime and win the next 2 games to win the series.
Hakeem's 94 Rockets supporting cast was about the weakest supporting cast to ever win a le.
Tim's never won a le with a group as weak as that one.
Saying Duncan's run now> Hakeem's 94 and 95 runs is crazier than saying Gervin is better than Kobe (MEGA Homer alert on that comment; Gervin could not hold Kobe Bryant's jockstrap, period).
Hakeem's run those 2 yrs came against 3 of the top 10 Centers of all time. Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq.
In these matchups, Hakeem averaged over 30 ppg, his teams went 12-5 against the Big 3's team's, and he amazingly outscored his contemporaries in all 17 games.
You can't compare what Duncan is doing the last 2 yrs against Dirk, Nene, Amare, and Okur (3 of which being weak defensive players) at all to what Hakeem did. Hakeem's run those 2 yrs is the gold standard for postseason basketball performances by a big.
George Gervin did not play one lick of defense and can't hold a freaking candle to Kobe Bryant. It seems whenever you are trying to hold your own in an argument you are clearly out of line with, you always resort to the attacks on personal character (Kobe was a rapist and chased of teammates).
Kobe was more clutch than Gervin, more creative, better defensively. The only 2 guard better in NBA history is MJ. Gervin's not even in the same tier. Championships aside, Kobe was just that much better individually. Gervin's teams did have a habit of choking in the playoffs as well.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...smithke01.html
It looks like 2-3 years later, but he basically was relegated to Mr. Irrelevant status after being cut by Houston.
Of course in Whott's book, he was this amazing basketball player.
So amazingly talented was Mr. Smith that after leaving Houston in 96 at age 30, he remained in the league one year, bouning around with 3 teams, and then was never wanted again by any NBA team.
WOW, what a talent!!!!!
That's what I thought. I don't remember anything from "Jet" after the 94 and 95 championship years.
He was a good basketball player...his knees went out on him.
AJ backed him up when they played on the same team.
So when there were rumors of Duncan leaving after 2000 to Orlando, do you think he'd have stayed if SA hadn't offered him the max contract (something like $12 million a year)?
Duncan got paid like a max player. He's not this philantropist who stayed with a team for a below market contract, so I dont see what your point is.
You're kidding if you dont think Duncan signs with Orlando if SA says in 2000 "we'd love to have you but cant pay you the max contract other teams are ready to pay you".
Duncan took less than he could have in 2003...
PWNT.
And Gervin would have ruled Kobe's ass...
You probably never even saw him play.
He had a dissapointing NBA career. Dude was drafted ahead of KJ but never panned out as anything but an accurate 3 point shooter. He did have a lot of God Given talent, but never put it together.
AJ backed him up because that was before AJ emerged as a basketball player.
You can hate on all those old clutch Rockets...
Horry
Elie
Smith
But none of them really did as STAR type players....
But they could knock down 3 point shots in an elimination game or a game 7 like no other mother ers in NBA history. Fact...
They don't realize how good they were.
God I wish you had to rely on Vinny Del Negro...
He was a lot like Horry...didn't seem to care much about putting up numbers every game.
Um...that was like a year before they won the le.
And AJ's emergence as a PG had a lot to do with throwing it into a 7 foot scoring champ that was pretty much a guranteed dunk or layup....even without a PG throwing it into him.
Could you imagine Gervin trying to guard Kobe Bryant? I did see him play. Great scorer, very fun to watch, but didnt play or care about defense, and played on some really good teams that just consistently came up short. Lacked the killer instinct of a Kobe Bryant and not the floorgame that Kobe had.
How did Duncan take less than he could have in 2003? I am not familiar with what happened, but he's making $17 mill a yr this year. Was this the year the Spurs wanted to get Jason Kidd?
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