Should the San Antonio Spurs retire Sean Elliott's Number 32?

[PM5K]

Very well said SpurFaninExile...
...I know because I watched him do it to Jordan...we owned the pre MJ retirement Bulls and Elliot's d on Jordan was a big reason for that.

Which years are you talking about exactly ?

[CosmicCowboy]

Elliott DID play great defense on Jordan...nobody stopped him but Sean as good a job of containing him as anyone...it wasn't unusual to see him hold Jordan to the low twentys...

[whottt]

Which years are you talking about exactly ?

As I said earlier...the pre MJ retirement Bulls...I meant his first retirement with the Bulls...When he came back and they added Rodman...they were too tough...plus we were saddled with AJ as our main PG...

I mean specificially...from 89-93 when the Spurs kicked MJ's ass up around his ears to the tune of a 6-2 record, including a memorable 22 point come back in Chicago that was keyed in large part by Elliott's third and fourth quarter Don the man himself...IIRC I think MJ even started taking cheap shots on him towards the end of that game.

I'll always remember that game...it's the one where, as calm and cool Drob iced the game in the 4th quarter with couple of FT's, the announcers said...it's the 4th quarter, they just came back from 22 points, and the man is not even sweating...

I believe that was 90-91...the year the Bulls went on to win their first le...I'm pretty sure that was the year because the Spurs didn't yet have the soft label and many were expecting the young and talented Spurs to give the Pistons a beating in the finals.

[FromWayDowntown]

I always thought it was interesting that the thing that inflated AJ's assist numbers was that he played with All-Star caliber players like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and Sean Elliott. It's pretty easy to roll up assists when you have some guys around you who have great skill and can put the ball in the bucket.

I also think it's worth noting that since 1990, the Spurs organization has had only 3 players make any All-Star team: David Robinson 10 times (7 times a selection by the coaches), Tim Duncan 6 times (1 time a selection by the coaches), and Sean Elliott 2 times (2 times a selection by the coaches). Since All-Star games in the NBA include on the elite among the elite, an All-Star selection is a pretty significant achievement.

I will say this, though, as a counter to the Sean Elliott argument: if Sean deserves to have his number retired, why isn't there a similar push to have Mike Mitc 's #34 retired. If anything, Mitc 's numbers are stronger . . . .

(I think the answer to that question is the solution to the debate).

[Useruser666]

I always thought it was interesting that the thing that inflated AJ's assist numbers was that he played with All-Star caliber players like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and Sean Elliott. It's pretty easy to roll up assists when you have some guys around you who have great skill and can put the ball in the bucket.

I also think it's worth noting that since 1990, the Spurs organization has had only 3 players make any All-Star team: David Robinson 10 times (7 times a selection by the coaches), Tim Duncan 6 times (1 time a selection by the coaches), and Sean Elliott 2 times (2 times a selection by the coaches). Since All-Star games in the NBA include on the elite among the elite, an All-Star selection is a pretty significant achievement.

I will say this, though, as a counter to the Sean Elliott argument: if Sean deserves to have his number retired, why isn't there a similar push to have Mike Mitc 's #34 retired. If anything, Mitc 's numbers are stronger . . . .

(I think the answer to that question is the solution to the debate).

So that's a yes, right?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Well the answer to the Mitc question is the championship. To be perfectly honest, I don't know that either of these guys would be in line for number retirement if they hadn't been on the first Spurs championship team.

[FromWayDowntown]

So that's a yes, right?

Yeah, I guess I did forget that part of it . . . .

I say yes to Elliott.

[Shelly]

Yes, because S-E-A-N is cool name, one of which I'm rather fond of even though there are a lot of idiots at doctor's offices that don't quite know how to pronounce it.

Oh, and that basketball reason also.

[Useruser666]

Yes, because S-E-A-N is cool name, one of which I'm rather fond of even though there are a lot of idiots at doctor's offices that don't quite know how to pronounce it.

Oh, and that basketball reason also.

Sean, Pat, Terry, or Chris could be girls names! Although I would vote Elliott in because I like Ninjas.

[samikeyp]

I always thought it was interesting that the thing that inflated AJ's assist numbers was that he played with All-Star caliber players like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and Sean Elliott

Purely playing devil's advocate here....does that mean Magic's numbers were inflated by playing with all-star caliber players like Kareem, Worthy and Byron Scott?

[PM5K]

I could only get boxes for 1992 and 1993 but Jordan averaged 37.3 points per game for the three games I could get boxes for. After that Jordan retired and Elliott was traded to Detroit I believe.

I wouldn't consider 37.3 PPG good defense but you are welcome to prove me wrong if you can find boxes from 1990-1991...

Let's also keep in mind that Sean never averaged more than a block per game and only averaged more than one steal per game once in his career.

He was also never on any defensive team, be it first or second....

[whottt]

I could only get boxes for 1992 and 1993 but Jordan averaged 37.3 points per game for the three games I could get boxes for.

And? You are talking about the second greatest scorer in NBA history...arguably the greatest.

After that Jordan retired and Elliott was traded to Detroit I believe.

Right, which I why I listed their record through the 8 games played between 89-93.

I wouldn't consider 37.3 PPG good defense but you are welcome to prove me wrong if you can find boxes from 1990-1991...

Not necessary...37 ppg is a high total...but not for 8 games VS Jordan in his prime. The number you need to understand is 6-2 against the original triple champion Bulls...and then ask yourself how that is accomplished without someone slowing Jordan down at key moments.

Let's also keep in mind that Sean never averaged more than a block per game and only averaged more than one steal per game once in his career.

Let's also keep in mind that steals and blocks aren't the be all end all in defense...Bowen doesn't have big steal totals either...he's still a great defender...and Elliott played a similar style of tireless hustling defense...he stayed with his man and busted his ass to contest every shot.

He was also never on any defensive team, be it first or second....

Yeah? And Drob was better in 93-94 than he was in 94-95...but he didn't get the MVP that year. Those teams aren't the only indicator of defensive ability and guys do slip through the cracks...Sean was one of them...playing in SA didn't help him...he was great defender...maybe not quite as good as Bowen...bu he was closer than being described as Bowen light...IMO, he was a better defensive player than he was an offensive player but he didn't get much recognition for it...possibly because of a lack of defensive stats.

Sean Elliott was an excellent defensive player...you don't go 6-2 against the early 90's Bulls without someone doing a good job on Jordan...and Elliott was the guy guarding him back then.

[whottt]

And besides...if you had watched that 20 point come back you'd realize how good a defender Elliott was...

[PM5K]

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any sense to say that because the Spurs won those games that Sean Elliott played good defense or slowed down Michael Jordan.

If you used that logic then you'd have to say that whoever defended Jordan in Boston when he scored 63 points must have been playing good defense against Jordan because Boston won that game...

[AJ num 6]

aj went toe to toe with some of the best point guards in the L and held his own back in the day.

elliott was torched by mj for 37 a game and you tout that as a great example of individual defense what drug are you on

[whottt]

I'm sorry but it just doesn't make any sense to say that because the Spurs won those games that Sean Elliott played good defense or slowed down Michael Jordan.

Neither does thinking you can judge history from a box score. Besides...I never said it was any thing other than my opinion...the W-L record of our team from that era just happens to back my recollections up I am please to find out...call it a coincidence if you will...or you just can just acknowledge I might know what I am talking about...I think that's a more realistic idea than expecting to find boxscores where Jordan was held to 15 points a game...because no one did that.

If you used that logic then you'd have to say that whoever defended Jordan in Boston when he scored 63 points must have been playing good defense against Jordan because Boston won that game...

No, because that wasn't over a span of 4 years and 8 games and those Bulls weren't winning NBA championships in the meantime...

On top of that...that Celtic team that beat Jordan was a pretty good ing team....Since Jordan didn't score 63 points on Elliot...and since we were beating them without the greatest frontline in NBA history...I'd say Elliot had quite a bit to do with it. In fact, I know he did, because I watched the games...some of them live and in person.

[tlongII]

I voted "yes" for Sean Elliott. He was a top-tier player and keyed the Spurs' run to their first championship with his goddamn memorial day miracle. Avery Johnson was a below-average point guard who was in the right place at the right time. His number should not be retired.

[whottt]

aj went toe to toe with some of the best point guards in the L and held his own back in the day.

elliott was torched by mj for 37 a game and you tout that as a great example of individual defense what drug are you on

Great points actually....

Unfortunately for you, even if that weak were taken seriously..AJ, not Elliott, was the one that left here and made some asshole comments...AJ is the one who elected to retire in Dallas, AJ is the one that played elsewhere as a scrub, and often, and AJ is the one who never lived in San Antonio...Unfortunately for you...Sean wins the "Real Spur" contest...he wins any comparison with AJ you want to put him in...so by all means keep trying.

[PM5K]

You are using a very general statistic (the Spurs 6-2 record against the Bulls) to prove a very specific argument (that Elliott defended Jordan well and slowed him down) and that just doesn't work.

And I think you can judge history from a box score, at least in this specific situation. How can you argue that Sean played good defense against Jordan when he averaged 37 PPG and shot 46% from the field?

And I won't acknowledge that you know what you are talking abot because you clearly don't.

[Useruser666]

I think Whottt should have pointed out that Elliott always had the tough assignment of guarding the best small scorers on opposing teams. Of course you will get beat by someone some of the time, that's life. Elliott was a key player for the Spurs for a good run of seasons. He is a good community guy as well. He is one the "guys" people are refering to when they talk about how classy the Spurs organisation is. He came back from a debility that no one had before and was a valuable contributer even then. He was David's right hand man for many years. His stats, even including his last 2 limited seasons, were better than average by league standards and quite good by Spurs' standards.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Oh, I forgot to mention that Sean also did some kick ass Taco Cabana commercials back in the day. He was an even better spokesman than Manu. What did Avery ever endorse?

And if you want to talk about shutting guys down, I think a better indicator would be the kind of performances he put on against the Knicks in the '99 finals. He was chasing Sprewell and Houston for forty minutes a night with craptacular knees and two useless kidneys. The game that sticks out the best in my mind was the one the spurs actually lost because the Knicks shot themselves back into that one when Elliott was off the floor. Or even better, look at that last moment in game 5 when Spree tried to go to the hole in the last seconds. Even if Tim and David weren't there Elliot was all over him like stink on the Warriors.

[whottt]

You are using a very general statistic (the Spurs 6-2 record against the Bulls) to prove a very specific argument (that Elliott defended Jordan well and slowed him down) and that just doesn't work.

And I think you can judge history from a box score, at least in this specific situation. How can you argue that Sean played good defense against Jordan when he averaged 37 PPG and shot 46% from the field?

Because he was averaging about 32ppg on about 51% shooting against the rest of the league....for the other 300 games he played in that era. Because if you didn't slow Jordan down back then, then you didn't beat the Chicago Bulls...as anyone who watched back then knows...and anyone that watched back then knows that no one stopped Jordan...because those that watched back then know that that was when the phrase "you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him" was born.

In that small sample size I think Elliott aquitted himself very well...

And I won't acknowledge that you know what you are talking abot because you clearly don't.

Then don't, but I suggest that you realize I was never trying to prove anything. I never claimed I could prove it factually nor did I attempt to.

I clearly stated it was my opinion and that I was going by recollection.......it's my opinion...you can believe it...or you can continue to live in ignorance. But if you think going to basketball reference and clicking on boxscores mean you have an insight into why the Spurs went 6-2 or what kind of D Elliott played on Jordan...I assure you, you are wrong. Elliott played great D on him...and he was a big reason we went 6-2...sorry if Elliott isn't going to go hold his head in shame because MJ scored 37ppg against him, mostly in losses, at a time his team was beating the crap out of every other team in the NBA.

[timvp]

What did Avery ever endorse?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Ah, how soon I forget. Still, I ate a whole lot of Taco Cabana when I lived in SA, but I did not do my banking through IBC. Therefore, Sean Elliott belongs in the hall of fame and Avery Johnson should be put in prison...that is what we were discussing on this thread, wasn't it?

[slayermin]

For the mere fact that he hit the Memorial Day Miracle, he should have his number retired. That shot changed the Spurs' lineage forever.