But if Robsertson is a PG, and I did forget about Frazier, so good call OV, then KJ and Wilkens would be off my list.
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Thomas
4. Stockton
5. Cousy
6. Frazier
7. Archibald
8. Kidd
9. Payton
10. Nash.
with KJ, Wilkens, T.Hardaway, Price and Cheeks rounding out my top-15.
When West and Gail Goodrich were playing alongside each other in the back court, people didn't really classify a guard as Point Guard, per se. Some coaches may have started using it but it wasn't a common expression in the '60s. There were guards and there were forwards. West actually had great assist numbers later in his career. Most basketball mavens tend to classify Jerry West as a scoring guard (2).
Since Johnny Mac was the shooting guard for the Bucks, that's exactly what happened, isn't it?
My definition of point guard is along the lines of "who brings the ball up the court and who is the primary ballhandler." By that definition, the Pistol is a PG.
I've just never heard many give him credit as a PG. I've heard the debate that he and Jordan should be battling for all-time SG more than I've heard the debate that he and Magic should be for all-time PG.
As OV said, and much better than my point, assists doesn't make the PG. Look at Frazier. He didn't average but 6.1 apg for his career, but was a HOFer and Finals MVP. But he was a PG.
Jordan once averaged 8.0 for a season. Grant Hill averaged 7/8 for a few seasons as well. Lots of wings have become the defacto generator of offense, but it doesn't make them PGs unless they are inserted at the PG spot.
Rafer Alston
AKA - Skip 2 My Lou
end.of.thread
Credibility must be regained slowly, over time after that post.
Credibility must be regained slowly, over time after that post.
you're right, Hot Sauce is better
That was the other point I meant to make, but forgot. The concept of a point guard as people think of it today is really a 70s creation.
Robertson brought the ball up and made the plays. Was Tiny Archibald not a point guard the year he lead the league in scoring?
By that logic Michael Jordan AND Scottie Pippen could be on this list. Armstrong, Paxon, Kerr, etc never brought the ball up the court.
Of the Point guards I have seen play (started watching NBA around 1983-1984)
1. Magic Johnson
2. Isiah Thomas
3. John Stockton
3. Gary Payton
4. Penny Hardaway (at his best)
5. Jason Kidd
I can't compare players of the past. Since we didn't see them play, were not even sure which ones were true point guards. Cousy had a lot of success, and my dad always said that the "big O" was the best ever.
Isiah Thomas was a winner, and I would take him over anyone but Magic. Gary Payton had the awesome defense, and I value defense. That is why Steve Nash isn't on this list. IMO he is the most overrated player EVER in the NBA. Gaudy shooting percentages don't make up for his complete lack of defensive ability.
Exception to the rule. Most point guards bring the ball up the court and initiate the offense in the halfcourt set.
01 Oscar Robertson
02 Magic Johnson
03 John Stockton
04 Isiah Thomas
05 Gary Payton
06 Jason Kidd
07 Steve Nash
08 Walt Frazier
09 Kevin Johnson
10 Maurice Cheeks
is it just me or is everyone here forgetting James White!
After scanning the usual internet suspects (wikipedia, basketball reference, etc.), it looks like Robertson has been listed at every position except center at one point or another in his career. The Big O was 6'5" back when that meant something, dad gummit!
Here's a question for you... If Jordan was the greatest player ever, then where does Robertson, who has comparable overall stats, rate?
Quick and crude comparison:
Robertson = 25.7 PPG, 9.5 APG, 7.5 RPG*
Jordan = 30.1 PPG, 5.3 APG, 6.2 RPG, 2.35 SPG, 0.83 BPG
* Steals and blocks were not kept officially until Robertson's last season. Anecdotal evidence suggests that Robertson would also have had slightly better numbers than Jordan in these two categories during their respective primes.
I guess this is sort of off-topic, but it generally aggravates me the way most people uncritically accept that Jordan was the greatest basketball player of all time. Very good, perhaps even better, arguments can be made for Robertson or Chamberlain.
I go back and forth on Jordan and Chamberlain as #1 and #2; I think Jordan was a bit better than Oscar, largely because I don't think Oscar would have dominated to the same extent had he played from 1984-2003 (with some intermittent retirements thrown in).
But I begin from the premise that athletic ability has been on a steady increase in professional athletes over the decades (for whatever reason cough*Bonds*cough). If one isn't inclined to believe that, then Oscar should be more or less the same player as MJ.
I feel the same way about Wilt. Had he come up in the mid-eighties, his career averages would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 26 PPG, 12 RPG, 3 BPG. Wilt wouldn't have scored 100 points in a game in a league with Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and Ewing, etc.
Jordan played in the NBA's golden era of popularity, which he helped bring about. He also won les in his last six full seasons, so there was definitely a Beatlemania phenomenon going on with the Bulls. A lot of non-basketball fans were drawn to the game because of Jordan. I'm not saying Jordan isn't the best player of all-time, but his unquestioned status as the GOAT has a lot to do with the fact that far more people alive now saw him play as opposed to the Big O and Wilt.
I think Jordan gets the edge because Robertson had such a huge physical advantage over his opposition. Jordan had an advantage, too, but there were plenty of guys in the league who approached him athletically.
Having siad that, Robertson is one of only a few of the great players from the 60s who I think would have been great in any era. (Chamberlain, Baylor, West.)
Most people will argue that Robertson's stats were blown out of proportion because of the way the games were played back then -- they were usually in the 120s.
Also, you can't argue about the rings. The Big O won one le... and it was when he played with Kareem in Milwaukee. He wasn't even the best player on the only championship team he played on. You can't say that about Jordan.
I can't argue with that, and I can't really argue that anyone who thinks that Jordan is the GOAT is dead wrong. However, I think that too many people accept Jordan as the GOAT completely uncritically (as if it were self-evident).
Some of this is regionalism also. I have noticed that Robertson is more regarded in Indiana (high school) and Ohio (college) than elsewhere.
A reasonable criticism.
Now, name one person Robertson played with in Cincinnati.
If you're good, you might be able to name 2 or 3.
Jerry Lucas? Sam Lacey?
This list sums it up right for me in the correct order. Magic and Oscar are definitly 1-2, while 3,4,5,6,7 could all be interchangible. Im not to sure about cheeks making in the top `10, but its workible.
Nice to see two all time players in the game at thew present time(nash, kidd).
Best overall general has to go to magic, if you ever saw him run point, you could see him get players in the right positions. This guy was huge and avgerage a ton of assists as a PG.
I used to love to watch the assist board as Magic and Stockton would lead each year anywhere from 12-15 assists a game. Just amazing. I didnt know how amazing it was till I see how seldom we see any point gaurd avg more then 7 assists a game these days.
I was also surprised top see how few people had Kevin Johnson on their lists. I guess they never saw him play. Guy was amazing.
Yoda
PS. Im a chess players too
also a Poker player.
Do or do not. there is no try
I cheated and looked on basketball reference.com.
Norm Van Lier, one of the Van Arsdale brothers, and player-coach Bob Cousy at the very end, Jerry Lucas, and Wayne Embry on their best team. That team with Embry and Lucas had to be pretty damn good. Lucas is a hall of famer and Embry was an all star several times.
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