To varying degrees sure. Is Magic Johnson clearly better than Oscar Robertson because he has more les? Bill Russell the better player than Wilt the Stilt? Is Isiah Thomas in his prime clearly a better player than Allen Iverson in his prime? les are absolutely a factor, but are they the only factor? As long as both have four, can neither Shaq or Tim Duncan be a better player than the other?
I stated that winning and les are a consideration, but not the only consideration. I stand by that.
Kevin Garnett may or may not have ever been on a team good enough to win a le. But, we know for sure he's never been to the Finals to show if he would have elevated his game on the biggest stage.
So, again, if winning and only winning is the bottom line, Robert Horry could be considered better than Michael Jordan, Magic, Duncan, and Shaq, right? But, then the counter-argument is that Michael, Magic, Duncan, and Shaq were the best players on their respective teams and put up better individual stats, right? Well, then winning and only winning is not the bottom line ... right?
I think most people will agree once Duncan retires, that he has surpasses Larry Legend and Hakeem, if Duncan wins another championship and continues to play at a high level for another 4 to 5 years, most will probably give him a slight edge over shaq as well
Something I have said numerous times here but it bears repeating.
IMO, KG is the better athlete, Duncan is the better basketball player.
i'm not going to say who is greater than who because they are both great in different ways. I do agree that KG is a better athlete and Timmy has a better Basketball IQ but they are both great.
But here is a thought. If switched KG for Duncan over the last 9 years how many rings would the Spurs have won? I would argue that KG would have 4 rings just like Timmy.
Keep repeating it.
It ends the arguement.
Duncan's game has never been about athleticism, although he could jump a little higher in his younger days.
Duncan's game is his brilliance, his basketball IQ. His way of seeing the floor and making the right play/decision.
Of course, his almost perfect fundamentals don't hurt.
Duncan has proven to be a winner with whatever cast of characters are around him. He leads this team by example and an incredible work ethic.
Garnett has game, anyone can see that.
I think coming straight out of high school, as someone said earlier, did hurt him. Duncan's 4 years at Wake helped him immensly.
But Garnett has never been able to get to that next level. We can debate why for years, and we have.
The bottom line is in the Trophy Case.
that about sums it up
I tend to disagree, and I will try to rationalize it.
The way the Spurs are built is with Duncan controlling the inside offense, with slashers (Parker, Ginobili), and three point shooters to compliment Duncan. On defense, perimeter defenders drive their man to the baseline, cutting out their options, and have Duncan over to help on defense.
While Garnett is arguably close to Duncan's level as a team defender, and possibly a better man-to-man defender, his inability to carry a team inside-out on offense will destroy the whole Spurs gameplan.
Without Duncan, there would be no driving lanes, without Duncan, there would be no wide open three pointers.
Duncan is vital to the Spurs success, and the only person during this time frame that could have given the Spurs similar success was possbly Shaq, but then Shaq's defense is nowhere close to Duncan's.
Since when has KG ever showed he can be counted on like TD has? And don't even get me started on defense.
KG has a higher ceiling in terms of athletic ability... he has (or rather, had) the potential to be better than Duncan... so much better... but potential is fool's gold... Duncan has the fundamentals, smarts and quiet desire to win... and the biggest difference in my humble opinion, is the way he treats his teammates...
You'd have peeps on both sides of that and its not a good comparison with KG because Oscar DID get his ring.
I would say Russell was a much better overall player than Wilt and again its not a good comparison with KG because Wilt DID get his ring.
Yes. There were two PGs that had a huge impact on the small man's game in the modern era, which I will arbitrarily define as 1980 to today: Isaiah for relentless use of the crossover dribble, and Tim Hardaway for doing the same on the move.
I never said it was the only factor, but with two players, if you never saw them and only compared stats, it's a of an indicator of dominance.
Y'see, I think that's huge. A lot of folks bag on Stockton, Malone, Ewing and Barkley for not having a ring, but at least they took their teams there, once for Barkley, and twice for the other 3.
Please stick to the comparison of franchise players and leave your fallacious Horry and Steve Kerr arguments at the door. Winning or not winning a ring is a valid measuring stick for similar players who shared an era. In the case of TD vs KG, it's not like it's 1-0. Tim has four ing rings, and Garnett got one brief whiff of NBA Finals panty odor before his nuts retracted into his abdominal cavity like they usually do when a game or series is on the line. He's a ing choker who doesn't want the ball late.
We also have our own Filipino style conversation regarding this issue and it took 26 thread pages and running...
you can view it here, here's the link.
http://forum.philboxing.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=77247
So, if KG wins just one, that changes everything?
Ok, fine, Billups better than Stockton? Tony Parker better than Jason Kidd? Cedric Maxwell better than Dominique Wilkins.I would say Russell was a much better overall player than Wilt and again its not a good comparison with KG because Wilt DID get his ring.
Isiah Thomas was a hero and idol of mine growing up. But, he never won a league MVP. And, if you look at the team Iverson took to the Finals and compare the talent to the Detroit Pistons championship teams with Isiah, as well as looking at individual stats, one can easily make an argument that Iverson will go down as the better player.Yes. There were two PGs that had a huge impact on the small man's game in the modern era, which I will arbitrarily define as 1980 to today: Isaiah for relentless use of the crossover dribble, and Tim Hardaway for doing the same on the move.
No, but you did say "bottom line." I'm not making an argument on players I never saw. I'm talking about Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. And, go back and read what I wrote. All I'm saying is that while championships and winning are factors, you simply cannot use that as the trump argument.I never said it was the only factor, but with two players, if you never saw them and only compared stats, it's a of an indicator of dominance.
Karl Malone's first NBA Finals was in his 12th season in the league. And, he had John Stockton. Has Kevin Garnett ever played with a player as good as Stockton? Remember his best chance at an NBA Finals appearance in 2004, Cassell couldn't play?Y'see, I think that's huge. A lot of folks bag on Stockton, Malone, Ewing and Barkley for not having a ring, but at least they took their teams there, once for Barkley, and twice for the other 3.
But, again, back to your comment that the bottom line is winning and les, right? Why is it only the bottom line for franchise players? That's one of my points to begin with. I don't just look at championships.Please stick to the comparison of franchise players and leave your fallacious Horry and Steve Kerr arguments at the door. Winning or not winning a ring is a valid measuring stick for similar players who shared an era. In the case of TD vs KG, it's not like it's 1-0. Tim has four ing rings, and Garnett got one brief whiff of NBA Finals panty odor before his nuts retracted into his abdominal cavity like they usually do when a game or series is on the line. He's a ing choker who doesn't want the ball late.
As for KG caving with the series on the line in 2004. In the two elimination games (games 5 and 6) of the 2004 Western Conference Finals, he averaged 26 points and 18 rebounds. And, in those games, the Wolves started Darrick Martin, Trenton Hassell, and either Olowokandi or Ervin Johnson. Come on. Cassell was out. Sprewell wasn't 100%. Their front court was KG, Ervin Johnson, Kandi, and Mark Madsen. Choke? Against Shaq, Kobe, Payton, and Karl Malone? How did they win two games in that series?
But, that's fine. KG hasn't won an NBA le, and he hasn't even been to an NBA Finals. You can use that as your deciding factor. I look at more than just winning les.
Last edited by JamStone; 08-22-2007 at 10:02 PM.
Duncan 4 KG Minus 4.
Topic Closed.
How is this even a debate?
To anyone who knows NBA basketball, it isn't.
edit: I also want to say I'm a fan of Garnett. It isn't like I'm a Duncan fan that hates Garnett. Tim is just clearly the better player. I would think that is obvious to almost anyone.
The thing with KG is that he had good PGS around him during his career, just that he pissed them after there couple of seasons with him...marbury/billups for example...Clearly there is something wrong here with KG if his willing to accept his team mates...now ppl are talkin about switching KG with TDs teams, and im sure a young TP/GINOBOLI/STEPH wouldve been traded already instead of sticking around waiting for them to pan out...
teams/rebuilding dont win championships overnight, it takes years, team chemistry, the right pieces to win one....KG seems like a guy who looks at short term goals instead of long term prospects...
And im sure KG is not about winning, its about him pulling in the money as much as he can then starts to worry about winning championships, thats the mind of todays atheletes...its all about the money...
man that thread is so in detail, that it makes KGfans exposed and see the green light
Since Mojazz is obviously too modest to toot his own horn, I will. Awesome post here:
http://forum.philboxing.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=77247
I have cut and pasted Mojazz's post as follows:
"I want that poster above to comment on these:
1. BY AWARDS AND LES, TD IS MORE ACCOMPLISHED
AWARDS / TD / KG
NBA les 4 0
Finals MVP 3 0
Season MVP 2 1
All-Star Game MVP 1 1
All-NBA 1st Team 9 3
All-Defensive 1st Team 7 6
Rookie of the Year Yes No
Draft Pick 1st 5th
In addition, TD was a member of the All-NBA 2nd Team once and the All-Defensive 2nd Team thrice, which made him only player in NBA annals to be named to both All-NBA and All-Defensive teams in all of 10 seasons. He’s on track to surpass K. Malone’s record of 11 All-NBA 1st Team selections and Jordan’s 9 All-NBA 1st Team. KG was a 4-time rebounding leader though TD still has better career average in that department than KG.
2. BY STATISTICS, TD HAS SUPERIOR NUMBERS
TD’s career overall stats are slightly superior to KG. In fact, TD has consistently averaged 20ppg/10rpg+ in each of his 1st 8 seasons joining Shaq, Olajuwon, Jabbar, Wilt and Pet as only players to accomplish the feat. The big disparity in their nos. though is the most important. TD is shooting a lot better than KG particularly in the playoffs with the latter’s horrendous .458FG. KG in fact isn’t only missing the shots but disappearing at endgames, worse he can’t make any good decisions on the court. Just for the record, KG only had a career-high 47 points in 2005 after almost a decade of playing, only his 3rd 40th game (Szczerbiak was even ahead of KG to score most points with 44), no wonder Amare ridiculed him during that game. TD’s career-high was 53 in 2001. Another difference in their game is on the defensive end. KG is overrated as a defensive player. Though he has more steals than TD, he isn’t an intimidating presence at the middle.
3. TD MAKES BIG-TIME PLAYS WHILE KG FLOPS
TD’s individual brilliance in the playoffs is to say the least magnificent. In series-clinching Game 6 of NBA Finals vs. the Nets, he had an insane near quadruple-double 21 pts., 20 rebs., 10 asts. and 8 blks. (a Finals record); against Nowitzki and the Mavs in 2003, a back-to-back 32-15 and 34-24 was just normal for him; against Shaq he would put up 37-16 in series-clinching Game 6 of West semis that would shed a tear on Kobe’s face. And KG’s best performance so far in the big stage? What about the 32-21 effort in Game 7 vs. the Kings in 2004 – and nothing else. He flopped again vs. LA (who got lucky with Fisher’s 0.4 secs. shot over the Spurs) in West finals with a 22-17 effort but with team-high 8 TOs.
4. IN HEAD-TO-HEAD, TD REIGNS SUPREME
TD and KG met twice in the playoffs, the former being 6-2 in playoff bouts with the latter. In Game 1 of 1999 Round 1, TD set the tone on the opening series when he scored 26 pts. and grabbed 12 rebs. Again, in Round 1 of 2001 playoffs, TD chipped in 33 pts., had 15 rebs., and a 15-foot bank shot over KG with 12.7 seconds left that all sealed the Spurs’ 87-82 win. Game 2 was even a laugher for the Spurs who were all smiles in the 2nd half in a lopsided win as TD held KG to 5 of 13 shooting in a celebrated mismatch of 2 PFs.
5. AS TEAMMATES, TD IS THE LEADER OF THE PACK
TD and KG both played in the 1999 Olympic qualifying tourney, and TD was the 2nd leading scorer (after Payton), leading rebounder and shot blocker of that US team. The duo was also a common fixture in the West teams during All-Star games. Again, TD is shooting more accurately than KG, and he averages a double-double in every outing (in fact he along Magic and Wilt are only players to put up a double-double in the All-Star games).
6. TD IS A PERENNIAL WINNER, KG IS A SORE LOSER
KG’s team missed the playoffs 4 times and had an NBA record 7 consecutive Round 1 exit. He was also swept twice in the post-season. TD’s team achieved the ff.:
Spurs are 4-time NBA champs which ranked them No. 4 in the all-time list of championship teams (behind only the Lakers, Celts and Bulls) despite joining the league only in 1976
Spurs are 4-0 in the NBA Finals series and 16-6 (.727) in Finals games which is the highest winning percentage in Finals history
Spurs are 6-time Divisional winners and made the playoffs in all of 10 seasons, the longest current streak in the NBA today
Spurs compiled an overall regular season record of 501-205 (.709), the best winning percentage in all 4 US major pro leagues (NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL) in the last 10 years
Spurs currently recorded its 8th straight 50th win in 2006-07 season, the 4th longest streak in NBA history
Spurs currently has the 2nd highest all-time regular season winning percentage among current NBA teams behind only the Lakers
7. TD MAKES TEAMMATES BETTER AND IS A PERFECT LEADER
Just for the record, TD is the only player other than Russell, to lead the same team to championships with 11 different teammates. Manu was only 57th pick in 1999 draft and Parker only 28th pick in 2001 draft. The 2 international players were rebuffed by other teams. In their rookie seasons, Parker only averaged 9.2 points on .42FG while Manu – 7.6 on .44FG. A year after teaming with TD, both improved to average a combined 26.3 ppg at .45FG clip. Another key player was Bowen, a perennial All-Defensive Team member. Playing in his 1st 7 seasons for 3 different teams, Bowen shot a dismal .36FG; at SA he bettered his shooting touch to .42FG and even led the NBA in 3-point accuracy in 2002-03. All these were attributed to TD because he creates wide-open shots for his teammates by attracting double teams or through screen/rolls, and his wide cover and nifty passes provide opportunities for easy penetration and jumpers.
The following composed the Wolves’ team which included former or future All-Stars Billups, Marbury, Cassell, Sprewell, Szczerbiak, Gugliotta, Brandon and Porter, and others like isiah Rider, spud webb, strickland, olowakandi, marc jackson, etc. You could tell from the ESPN commentators how KG handled his team and himself in the playoffs. Magic for one had criticized KG over the years for not taking over and dominate a game as like other great big men. The only good series KG had was in 2004 West finals vs. LA. Though KG averaged 23.66 pts. and 13.5 rebs. a game, he also led the team in turnovers with 3.67 while shooting a not so impressive .463FG.
8. TD HAS MORE POLISHED SKILLS THAN KG
a. Low-post (back-to-the-basket) = TD advantage
b. Low-post (face-up) = TD advantage
c. Medium range jumper = TD advantage
d. Interior defense = TD advantage
e. Help defense = TD advantage
f. Fade-aways, baby hooks, up-&-under, pivots, bank shots = TD advantage
g. Dribble penetration = TD advantage
h. Kick-outs (spotting open teammates) = TD advantage"
I believe Duncan > Garnett.
They have comparable talents but Duncan is the perfect teammate and a proven winner. Moreover Duncan uses his skills at full efficiency and not Garnett.
But I don't think the answer is so obvious than the question can't be asked. By some "measurements" KG looks better than TD. (re)Opening the debate just give us an occasion to really how great TD really is.
But Garnett is still a great player and to be honnest he only had one shot at winning a le and failed short against the Lakers after a strong series with something like 24 ppg 13 rbds and 5 asts. JamStone has given a lot of solid argument to prove that Garnett is not only a player stacking up statistics. Garnett is the third best bigs of his era behind Duncan and Shaq. Some people here could give a piece of respect for that.
Hopefuly we will have Spurs vs. Celtics in the Finals. Duncan will prove he is still the best and Garnett will prove he is a great player.
Dirk = MVP
DPOY = Campy
Finals MVP = TP
...
These awards don't prove much
The worse is the draft position (should I say Kwame Brown?)
The "intimidating" part is true but is not relevant in the stats comparison.
2. BY STATISTICS, TD HAS SUPERIOR NUMBERS
TD’s career overall stats are slightly superior to KG. In fact, TD has consistently averaged 20ppg/10rpg+ in each of his 1st 8 seasons joining Shaq, Olajuwon, Jabbar, Wilt and Pet as only players to accomplish the feat. The big disparity in their nos. though is the most important. TD is shooting a lot better than KG particularly in the playoffs with the latter’s horrendous .458FG. KG in fact isn’t only missing the shots but disappearing at endgames, worse he can’t make any good decisions on the court. Just for the record, KG only had a career-high 47 points in 2005 after almost a decade of playing, only his 3rd 40th game (Szczerbiak was even ahead of KG to score most points with 44), no wonder Amare ridiculed him during that game. TD’s career-high was 53 in 2001. Another difference in their game is on the defensive end. KG is overrated as a defensive player. Though he has more steals than TD, he isn’t an intimidating presence at the middle.
Actually TD and KG have very similar statistics. All you say is true but:
KG has
- more assists (4.5 vs. 3.2)
- 49% Fg against TD 50% but with 78% FT against 68%
- less turnover (2.57 vs 2.88) and less fouls (2.5 vs 2.70).
I think the stats can't give you the best of the two. Even in playoff you can't really see a big difference except for the FG% (I agree this one is important).
Unfair take a look at Garnett number for the lakers series they were huge. And the TO thing is just funny.
3. TD MAKES BIG-TIME PLAYS WHILE KG FLOPS
TD’s individual brilliance in the playoffs is to say the least magnificent. In series-clinching Game 6 of NBA Finals vs. the Nets, he had an insane near quadruple-double 21 pts., 20 rebs., 10 asts. and 8 blks. (a Finals record); against Nowitzki and the Mavs in 2003, a back-to-back 32-15 and 34-24 was just normal for him; against Shaq he would put up 37-16 in series-clinching Game 6 of West semis that would shed a tear on Kobe’s face. And KG’s best performance so far in the big stage? What about the 32-21 effort in Game 7 vs. the Kings in 2004 – and nothing else. He flopped again vs. LA (who got lucky with Fisher’s 0.4 secs. shot over the Spurs) in West finals with a 22-17 effort but with team-high 8 TOs.
7/4/6/7/2/7/2 these are Duncan's TO during the 2004 series against the Lakers.
And obviously someone forgot Garnett had 30 pts/19rbds/4ast and 0 TO in a 98-96 win during the game five.
not much to say TD proved who is the boss4. IN HEAD-TO-HEAD, TD REIGNS SUPREME
TD and KG met twice in the playoffs, the former being 6-2 in playoff bouts with the latter. In Game 1 of 1999 Round 1, TD set the tone on the opening series when he scored 26 pts. and grabbed 12 rebs. Again, in Round 1 of 2001 playoffs, TD chipped in 33 pts., had 15 rebs., and a 15-foot bank shot over KG with 12.7 seconds left that all sealed the Spurs’ 87-82 win. Game 2 was even a laugher for the Spurs who were all smiles in the 2nd half in a lopsided win as TD held KG to 5 of 13 shooting in a celebrated mismatch of 2 PFs.
You should not talk about olympics if you plaid for TD greatness and all star game is a joke.
5. AS TEAMMATES, TD IS THE LEADER OF THE PACK
TD and KG both played in the 1999 Olympic qualifying tourney, and TD was the 2nd leading scorer (after Payton), leading rebounder and shot blocker of that US team. The duo was also a common fixture in the West teams during All-Star games. Again, TD is shooting more accurately than KG, and he averages a double-double in every outing (in fact he along Magic and Wilt are only players to put up a double-double in the All-Star games).
Known facts
6. TD IS A PERENNIAL WINNER, KG IS A SORE LOSER
KG’s team missed the playoffs 4 times and had an NBA record 7 consecutive Round 1 exit. He was also swept twice in the post-season. TD’s team achieved the ff.:
Spurs are 4-time NBA champs which ranked them No. 4 in the all-time list of championship teams (behind only the Lakers, Celts and Bulls) despite joining the league only in 1976
Spurs are 4-0 in the NBA Finals series and 16-6 (.727) in Finals games which is the highest winning percentage in Finals history
Spurs are 6-time Divisional winners and made the playoffs in all of 10 seasons, the longest current streak in the NBA today
Spurs compiled an overall regular season record of 501-205 (.709), the best winning percentage in all 4 US major pro leagues (NBA, MLB, NHL, NFL) in the last 10 years
Spurs currently recorded its 8th straight 50th win in 2006-07 season, the 4th longest streak in NBA history
Spurs currently has the 2nd highest all-time regular season winning percentage among current NBA teams behind only the Lakers
...
7. TD MAKES TEAMMATES BETTER AND IS A PERFECT LEADER
Just for the record, TD is the only player other than Russell, to lead the same team to championships with 11 different teammates. Manu was only 57th pick in 1999 draft and Parker only 28th pick in 2001 draft. The 2 international players were rebuffed by other teams. In their rookie seasons, Parker only averaged 9.2 points on .42FG while Manu – 7.6 on .44FG. A year after teaming with TD, both improved to average a combined 26.3 ppg at .45FG clip. Another key player was Bowen, a perennial All-Defensive Team member. Playing in his 1st 7 seasons for 3 different teams, Bowen shot a dismal .36FG; at SA he bettered his shooting touch to .42FG and even led the NBA in 3-point accuracy in 2002-03. All these were attributed to TD because he creates wide-open shots for his teammates by attracting double teams or through screen/rolls, and his wide cover and nifty passes provide opportunities for easy penetration and jumpers.
The following composed the Wolves’ team which included former or future All-Stars Billups, Marbury, Cassell, Sprewell, Szczerbiak, Gugliotta, Brandon and Porter, and others like isiah Rider, spud webb, strickland,
olowakandi,
Once again you go back to statistics
marc jackson, etc. You could tell from the ESPN commentators how KG handled his team and himself in the playoffs. Magic for one had criticized KG over the years for not taking over and dominate a game as like other great big men. The only good series KG had was in 2004 West finals vs. LA. Though KG averaged 23.66 pts. and 13.5 rebs. a game, he also led the team in turnovers with 3.67 while shooting a not so impressive .463FG.
So Garnett doesn't have the advantage in any skills???? not even something as stupid as FT shooting???
8. TD HAS MORE POLISHED SKILLS THAN KG
a. Low-post (back-to-the-basket) = TD advantage
b. Low-post (face-up) = TD advantage
c. Medium range jumper = TD advantage
d. Interior defense = TD advantage
e. Help defense = TD advantage
f. Fade-aways, baby hooks, up-&-under, pivots, bank shots = TD advantage
g. Dribble penetration = TD advantage
h. Kick-outs (spotting open teammates) = TD advantage"
This comparison is completely biased
...
And Duncan is the best
I don't like people trying to bring KG down just to prove TD greatness.
KG is a beast but Duncan is the best... so Duncan is the greatest of all time.
To become a legend you need to have big compe ors and KG is a big compe or.
OK，How to prove KG to be great?
can you take something to prove KG?
In KG's defense on this one, they never give the MVP to a player who is not on one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the league. So KG had no shot at it, even though his numbers were not that much less than Dirks.
And KG has the highest effeciancy rating in the NBA almost every year.
KG 's numbers were not that much less than Dirks. but, less than Dirks
and KG 's team is not one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the league.
so,
that is why he is not MVP.
mathbzh, if only i can give you the reputation point, i would. Great post and points regarding the issue !
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote