Udrih > Parker

[exstatic]

After 4 years in the league, Gary Payton had a 3 point % of .209, a FT % of .670, had not averaged more than 6.4 assists in a PG-centric system, and people were saying that he couldn't run a team. He was 26 years old, and Seattle was contemplating trading him. Good thing they didn't.

Put a Steve Nash on the Spurs and he would have 13 assists and shoot 56% a game.

Well, maybe he'd shoot 56%, but the Spurs don't run as much as any Nash team ever has, and the PG gets maybe 30% of our assists on a good night, so I call bull on the 13 apg numbers.
Tony and Nash are really the same kind of PG, a jet in the open court, who struggles to find rhythm in the half court. Nash just has a better jumper. Go look at HIS assist numbers for his first 4 seasons. Two of those were as Dallas' starter, and his assist numbers were no better than TP's

[SequSpur]

Broken ankles don't win games Seq.

So far the Spurs are 18 and 5. They have a decent backup that they can build on, so when Parker goes South, Beno can maybe fill in.

The Spurs have 1 championship under Parker, and I personally think there should have been more, however, I don't blame Parker, I blame Pop for the team turnover in personnel year after year after year.

To say that Parker sucks or is an idiot is ing ludicrous.

Dude is one of the best point guards in the league and can score whenever he wants and can guard any point guard in the league.

[Autumnleaf]

To put it bluntly, I think Parker is an idiot when it comes to being a pure PG. He just can't seem to read a defense. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to anticipate where the open man is going to be while going full speed. Parker rarely shows this ability. Beno has already shown that he has it.

to put it bluntly, i think you are an idiot when it comes to appreciating other people. You just can't seem to see people in the right way. That isn't something you can teach. You either have it or you don't. You have to be able to put all the dynamic situations under consideration before you make a judgement. You rarely show this ability.

The difference in the offense is obvious to me when Parker is in the game. The offense is slow, trudging, methodical. When Beno is in the game however, don't close your eyes for a second. You might miss that split-the-defenders pass that leads to an easy layup.
Fortunately Beno only plays about 15 mins per game, otherwise you will have to have a pairs of superman's eyes

Don't know about you fellas. But I'd rather have a guy that can read the floor quickly. Guys like Manu and Beno for example. These kind of payers give your team an edge. See the 4th quarter comeback against Orlando for proof.

Don't know about you VIP. But I'd rather have a guy that can penetrate into the paint quickly. Guys like Tony Parker for example. These kind of players give you win after win. See the WHOLE game against Cleveland for proof.

[Jimcs50]

After 4 years in the league, Gary Payton had a 3 point % of .209, a FT % of .670, had not averaged more than 6.4 assists in a PG-centric system, and people were saying that he couldn't run a team. He was 26 years old, and Seattle was contemplating trading him. Good thing they didn't.

Well, maybe he'd shoot 56%, but the Spurs don't run as much as any Nash team ever has, and the PG gets maybe 30% of our assists on a good night, so I call bull on the 13 apg numbers.
Tony and Nash are really the same kind of PG, a jet in the open court, who struggles to find rhythm in the half court. Nash just has a better jumper. Go look at HIS assist numbers for his first 4 seasons. Two of those were as Dallas' starter, and his assist numbers were no better than TP's

ex, I said 4-5 yrs..not 4. Look at the % improvement for both Payton and Nash, from years 1-5 in the league. They both kept improving betw 20-40% each year and after the 5th year, they leveled off to their present levels. You do not improve after the 5th year, by and large. Exceptions are if you do not play at all the first few years and then get into a starting position whereupon you get better just because of the number of minutes played. TP has been playing a lot of mins from year 1, unlike Nash.

From what I have seen in Parker's year thus far, he is not improving at all in any category. His FT shooting is getting worse actually.

[ducks]

d is not a catergory?

[JUUOT]

Jimcs50! stop looking at your spreadsheet. if we love basketball it is because this game has a lot more than this. a stat line can never represent what a player brings and it is why Timvp is giving grades after games or +/- ! my point is number might show something but are not the TRUTH! get over it

[exstatic]

Jim, then Parker has almost two years to go. He's barely scratched year 4, only 20 plus games in.

[smeagol]

So far the Spurs are 18 and 5. They have a decent backup that they can build on, so when Parker goes South, Beno can maybe fill in.

Is Sequ praising Beno?

Sequ, funnyman, are you flip-floping again?

[Jimcs50]

Jimcs50! stop looking at your spreadsheet. if we love basketball it is because this game has a lot more than this. a stat line can never represent what a player brings and it is why Timvp is giving grades after games or +/- ! my point is number might show something but are not the TRUTH! get over it

I am not even looking at his stats. I am looking at the way he handles the team. I have seen his same old game for 3 yrs and it does not seem to be evolving any. He has disappeared in the playoffs for 2 straight years because the playoff game bogs down and it becomes a half court game where he is at his weakest. TP is a one trick pony and unless his game and shot improve, the Spurs can do better, and it looks like Beno is the man to replace him.

I mean, just watching Beno run the team is so much fun to watch, he is John Stockton and Magic Johnson combined....You just wait, the Spurs will be playing him in the 4th Q of close games by years end if he continues to improve.

[Jimcs50]

Jim, then Parker has almost two years to go. He's barely scratched year 4, only 20 plus games in.

ex, he is getting worse, not better. We can not afford to have him in the game in the 4th Q with his poor FT shooting, he is a liability. We have 4 poor Ft shooters and we can not have Bowen, TD, TP and Rasho in the game in close games in the 4th Q. Beno will be the one in along with Brown and Rose instead of Bowen, Rasho and TP.

[ChumpDumper]

Bowen's FT% (.767) is higher than that of Malik Rose and Robert Horry, and is 3 percentage points off of Manu's. Not a liability anymore -- shocking as that may seem.

[exstatic]

Bowen is shooting 77% this year from the FT line, Jim.

I'm not willing to write off this year for Tony. His shooting has picked up as of late, and his FT% of 69% is only two points off his career 71%. I put most of this down as a slow start. If he were averaging 20 and 8, you would be saying, yeah, but it's only 23 games in. Please extend him that benefit of the doubt for his slow start.

[MrChug]

I see Beno drawing comparisons to Steve Nash in his first years with the Suns. Aside from the striking resemblance, he handles the ball very confidently with his head on a swivel looking for the open man much like Johnny Stockton...perpetual motion. Johnny would make things happen on the offensive end, he wouldn't wait-just like what Nashy is doing this year...and what I can see Beno developing into.

[ChumpDumper]

Tony's D is better, stunningly better if anyone would care to think about it. Whenever I think he's plateaued he pulls of a huge improvement in his game -- just like Bowen continues to improve aspects of his game late in his career.

I'll take it.

[Nemo]

I see Beno drawing comparisons to Steve Nash in his first years with the Suns. Aside from the striking resemblance, he handles the ball very confidently with his head on a swivel looking for the open man much like Johnny Stockton...perpetual motion. Johnny would make things happen on the offensive end, he wouldn't wait-just like what Nashy is doing this year...and what I can see Beno developing into

Hi guys, I agree with MrChug on Beno. He creates plays. But he has to work on the D. beno is used to the position of being a leader of the team, because he played for big European teams since he was 19. And European teams + Argentina proved their value at this years olympics! (I'm from Slovenia too). But I wouldn't writte of Tony. He's different and that's to be used for the benefit of the team. There are 82 games in the season + playoffs. Spurs need two good guys and (at least) two different types of play to win this year and years to come. Isn't that what we want?

[Jimcs50]

Bowen is shooting 77% this year from the FT line, Jim.

I'm not willing to write off this year for Tony. His shooting has picked up as of late, and his FT% of 69% is only two points off his career 71%. I put most of this down as a slow start. If he were averaging 20 and 8, you would be saying, yeah, but it's only 23 games in. Please extend him that benefit of the doubt for his slow start.

I am not giving up on him either, but he is not as good as he was 2 yrs ago. He shot almost 76% from the line in 02 and had more pts/ game and more assists. His game is stagnating, not improving, so unless we see a reversal of this trend, his trade value will continue to plummet.

But I just can't wait to watch Beno in his next few games, as he is looking like the steal of the draft more and more. Can you imagine him and Manu along with Brown in the game at the same time? Pop will have to throw a towel over his head so he won't be able to watch because he will have a coronary.

[whottt]

Bowen's FT% (.767) is higher than that of Malik Rose and Robert Horry, and is 3 percentage points off of Manu's. Not a liability anymore -- shocking as that may seem.

Go shock yourself...some of us knew all Malik needed was playing time and spent much of last season saying he needed more...even if Horry was playing better...Bowen's improvment is proof that nothing is immutable and players do improve.

Others, were stupid then and shocked now, remain trapped in a limited all or nothing, one or the other, mindset, and they can expect to be shocked again in the future, because of the way they embrace stupidity.

[ChumpDumper]

Go shock yourself...some of us knew all Malik needed was playing time and spent much of last season saying he needed more...even if Horry was playing better...

Um, that was about Bowen's FT, dip . Where was your prediction about that?

I said if Malik can play like he used to he wont' have to be traded. That has happened and I'm glad. Horry is fine the way he is being used.

Now your prediction about Barry is he will never play regular minutes ever again. When are you going to flip-flop from that?

[whottt]

Um, that was about Bowen, dip . Where was your prediction about that?

I said if Malik can play like he used to he wont' have to be traded. That has happened and I'm glad. Horry is fine the way he is being used.

Now your prediction about Barry is he will never play regular minutes ever again. When are you going to flip-flop from that?

He won't while he is with the Spurs, barring injury or loss of talent.

And Horry is in the same shoes Malik was in last season...which is as stupid as it was when it was done to Malik...and probably less deserved.

[ChumpDumper]

He won't while he is with the Spurs, barring injury or loss of talent.

Make that your sig so you won't be able to deny it later.

[whottt]

Make that your sig so you won't be able to deny it later.

Um, what have I said in the past that I am denying now Mr.Mrs.Miss. Hedo>Manu?

[ChumpDumper]

It's not my fault you can't read.

Look, if Malik can get back in the rotation after losing out to Willis and Horry, Barry can too -- unless you think he's that bad a player.

Either you do or you don't.

[whottt]

It's not my fault you can't read.

Look, if Malik can get back in the rotation after losing out to Willis and Horry, Barry can too -- unless you think he's that bad a player.

Would that be before or after it contributes to costing us a playoff series?

It's a totally different situation anyway...

Malik was on of Pop's guys to begin with...the fluke is not him making it off the bench...the fluke was that he was there in that manner in the first place...He challenged Pop's authority. He's always been one of Pop's guys... which is why he has been here 8 years, and has a bad contract.

Malik=younger than those guys, has been with the team longer, knows the team better.

Either you do or you don't.

It's not that I think Barry's a bad player, fool...if I thought that I wouldn't be upset about his benching now would I?

It's that Pop has a limited mindset as a coach, to the point where he sometimes hurts the team with his decision making, to the point where it almost outweighs all the other things he does an excellent job at doing...

Some us weren't surprised at what Kerr did in the playoffs...some of used to start threads calling for him in the midst of the team blowing a lead...Some of us are just wondering why Pop never really figured it out.

[ChumpDumper]

Would that be before or after it contributes to costing us a playoff series?

You say never, so what do you care?

Some us weren't surprised at what Kerr did in the playoffs...some of used to start threads calling for him in the midst of the team blowing a lead...Some of us are just wondering why Pop never really figured it out.

So if you want Barry to play Kerr minutes, why again are you bugging?

And Kerr obviously got the team D concept, however long that took.

Does Barry?

No.

Should we stifle the further development of Brown and Beno into the type of player you think Barry might also develop into in favor of Barry just because he's older? Makes more money?

That's welfare.

He challenged Pop's authority.

Playing ty D is a slap in Pop's face. Let's reward it by giving him more minutes over guy's who actually play D. Get Bob Hill back if that's the way you feel.

[whottt]

You say never, so what do you care?

Because I like winning les more than trying to hold teams scoreless.

So if you want Barry to play Kerr minutes, why again are you bugging?


And Kerr obviously got the team D concept, however long that took.

Um...I didn't like the minutes Kerr got.

Obviously playing D didn't keep him from rotting on the bench and getting a birds eye view to many a playoff choke job.

And Barry is not Kerr anyway...just because Kerr was able to overcome Pop's stupid mismanagement of his talent doesn't mean Barry will. Kerr had big roles on better teams than any that Pop will ever coach.

Does Barry?

He's not going to play it as well as Devin which means he's going to be given the 50 games a year garbage minutes role whether he plays D or not. There's really no incentive for him to play D..it won't change his minutes in a meaningful way...

Should we stifle the further development of Brown and Beno into the type of player you think Barry might also develop into in favor of Barry just because he's older? Makes more money?

Others, were stupid then and shocked now, remain trapped in a limited all or nothing, one or the other, mindset

How'd not stifling Horry and Hedo work out for us last season...and I use the term stifling in the same joke sense that you unwittingly use it..

That's welfare. Playing ty D is a slap in Pop's face. Let's reward it by giving him more minutes over guy's who actually play D. Get Bob Hill back if that's the way you feel.

It's a higher priority to me to win a le than it is to worry about who is slapping Pop in the face or getting rewarded or punished.