For those who kept saying Jordan was a great teammate

[ambchang]

And who said Jordan was a good teammate? Hasn't everybody agreed that the guy could be an arrogant ass? But ask any of those former teammates if they'd go through the entire Jordan experience again, and they'd all say yes without a doubt. They'd all play alongside Jordan in a heartbeat.

Jordan was neither angel nor devil. He's not the great teammate Tim Duncan is, but he was definitely a better teammate that Kobe has been.

I see a guy that is so compe ive that he doesn't even want to loose in practice, and I can't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

If it was me, i'd be glad to play with the greatest player of all time, and someone who would be tough and keep me from slacking off, making me a better player.

this thread is stupid. so what if the greatest man to ever play the game busted his teammates balls. they were lucky to have him as a teammate.

I would say those people are all saying that Jordan's actions were a) justifies, b) make his teammates better, which is simply not the case.

I am not even concerned about whether Jordan was a better teammate than Duncan or not, my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was compe ive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.

[stretch]

I would say those people are all saying that Jordan's actions were a) justifies, b) make his teammates better, which is simply not the case.

I am not even concerned about whether Jordan was a better teammate than Duncan or not, my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was compe ive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.

The difference is that Jordan was winning. Kobe is not. Winners get a pass. Everyone knows that.

[ambchang]

Shaq
Penny
Nick Anderson

he was a fourth fiddle at best in Orlando, he might even be fifth, because Dennis Scott was around too.

Wow, so Grant being 4th fiddle in Orlando allowed him to have the same / similar statistical production as he did with the Bulls as the 3rd fiddle/

[ambchang]

The difference is that Jordan was winning. Kobe is not. Winners get a pass. Everyone knows that.

In other words, double standards.
Which I can certainly understand.

[stretch]

In other words, double standards.
Which I can certainly understand.

If you view it like that, then its fine. Its the same reason great players and winners get a pass for talking , while ty players and losers don't.

And if you are fine with it, then why do you keep whining like a little about it?

[monosylab1k]

IMO, this post puts to rest any "jordan = bad teammate" discussion.

I hear Patton was a real SOB too. You want to win the war or a popularity contest?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...1&postcount=41

[monosylab1k]

my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was compe ive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.

you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.

[ambchang]

If you view it like that, then its fine. Its the same reason great players and winners get a pass for talking , while ty players and losers don't.

And if you are fine with it, then why do you keep whining like a little about it?

Because I wasn't aware that people are fine with themselves having double standards.

[ambchang]

IMO, this post puts to rest any "jordan = bad teammate" discussion.



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...1&postcount=41

But then why is Kobe Bryant being chastised for exactly the same thing? I understand now that it is a double standard.

[Reggie Miller]

you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.

That is definitely the difference between Jordan and Bryant. No comparison between these two.

There is definitely a double standard in sports. That is a given. My point is (and has always been) that Jordan's at ude may have cost the Bulls even more les. It's no secret what happened between Reinsdorf, Krause, Jackson, and Jordan. If you buy into the "suspended for gambling" theory, he probably cost them two les over that. Even if you don't, you can make the argument that quitting basketball for baseball is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Michael Jordan was created by Nike, and the NBA and Nike were fortunate that he really was that good. (Subsequent attempts have largely failed.) For this and other reasons, Jordan thought he was bigger than the game, and I don't think anyone would seriously debate that. Whether or not he actually was bigger than the game (and he probably was), it doesn't excuse his behavior.

My personal axe to grind in all of this is that I don't think people should laud Jordan as the greatest player of all time and just ignore all of these negative facts about the man. Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better at ude. This is all forgotten now.

Oh well...

[ambchang]

you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.

You mean the game where Kobe went 8-16 for 24 pts, including 4-8 on 3s, and the Lakers got blown out by about 30 points? I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best. Are you going to define Pippen's career with the 1.8s, or Shaq getting swept? Or how Hakeem refused to play games and clashes with management in the early 90s? How about Magic getting his coach fired? Isiah Thomas with his inbounds pass stolen by Bird?

[stretch]

Because I wasn't aware that people are fine with themselves having double standards.

Okay, so what is your whole point? You want to dog on Jordan, but you aren't promoting Kobe or anyone else... is this the whole point of the thread? to simply dog on Michael Jordan? That's what it looks like to me. If thats the case, then I don't even know why I bothered defending him. His resume itself makes all the haters look stupid. No other words are neccesary.

[stretch]

That is definitely the difference between Jordan and Bryant. No comparison between these two.

There is definitely a double standard in sports. That is a given. My point is (and has always been) that Jordan's at ude may have cost the Bulls even more les. It's no secret what happened between Reinsdorf, Krause, Jackson, and Jordan. If you buy into the "suspended for gambling" theory, he probably cost them two les over that. Even if you don't, you can make the argument that quitting basketball for baseball is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Michael Jordan was created by Nike, and the NBA and Nike were fortunate that he really was that good. (Subsequent attempts have largely failed.) For this and other reasons, Jordan thought he was bigger than the game, and I don't think anyone would seriously debate that. Whether or not he actually was bigger than the game (and he probably was), it doesn't excuse his behavior.

My personal axe to grind in all of this is that I don't think people should laud Jordan as the greatest player of all time and just ignore all of these negative facts about the man. Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better at ude. This is all forgotten now.

Oh well...

If he already is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and could have been better, then I don't see how you can knock on him for that. He already accomplished everything an NBA player could possibly accomplish. In fact, he already did before he retired for the FIRST time. He won 3 straight championships, multiple MVPs, gold medals, made the All-Star team every year in the league, won DPOY, a gold medal, and was already widely considered the best basketball player that ever lived... I think at that point, he could do whatever the he wanted, and if he wanted to retire and play baseball, thats his choice. he already did his duty, played out his entire contract, won les, and made all kinds of ridiculous revenue for the NBA. he spent a year and a half doing whatever, then came back, and won 3 more les, some MVPs, and another gold medal, as well as a ton more revenue for the NBA. I really don't see how anyone can find a reason to complain about his playing career. He could have been better and done more, sure... but at the same time, he had nothing more to prove, and there is more to life than just basketball, so I can't blame him for leaving early.

[stretch]

You mean the game where Kobe went 8-16 for 24 pts, including 4-8 on 3s, and the Lakers got blown out by about 30 points? I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best. Are you going to define Pippen's career with the 1.8s, or Shaq getting swept? Or how Hakeem refused to play games and clashes with management in the early 90s? How about Magic getting his coach fired? Isiah Thomas with his inbounds pass stolen by Bird?

No one says that defines his career one bit. You really need to read people's posts. He just said that was something that Jordan would have never done. Can you agree with that? And can you honestly say Kobe played his ass off in that game? If his teammates aren't hitting crap, while he was the SOLE reason they ever had a chance at winning that series, then he should have tried to take over the game when things got out of hand. Instead, he just sat back, watched, and let everyone self-destruct, and did nothing.

[Reggie Miller]

If he already is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and could have been better, then I don't see how you can knock on him for that. He already accomplished everything an NBA player could possibly accomplish. In fact, he already did before he retired for the FIRST time. He won 3 straight championships, multiple MVPs, gold medals, made the All-Star team every year in the league, won DPOY, a gold medal, and was already widely considered the best basketball player that ever lived... I think at that point, he could do whatever the he wanted, and if he wanted to retire and play baseball, thats his choice. he already did his duty, played out his entire contract, won les, and made all kinds of ridiculous revenue for the NBA. he spent a year and a half doing whatever, then came back, and won 3 more les, some MVPs, and another gold medal, as well as a ton more revenue for the NBA. I really don't see how anyone can find a reason to complain about his playing career. He could have been better and done more, sure... but at the same time, he had nothing more to prove, and there is more to life than just basketball, so I can't blame him for leaving early.

I have one important qualifier to all of that: I also don't think Michael Jordan was unquestionably the GOAT. Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain are in that discussion. (You can also make some of the same "failed to realize his full potential" arguments with Chamberlain also.) The real key to me is that Jordan could have easily prevented this sort of debate by winning 8 consecutively.

Also, I really do believe Jordan was secretly suspended. If you believe that, it is hard to look at him the same way. If I am just some conspiracy nut, I do apologize...

[monosylab1k]

I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best.

It doesn't define his career, but it shows the difference between Jordan and Kobe. Things got tough for Kobe and he gave up. Bring up his empty stats if you like, but if you actually watched that game, you KNOW that Kobe was purposely tanking in the 2nd half.

And that game is merely a microcosm of everything Kobe is about. It doesn't define his career, but it does define his relationship with his team that year and every year before it.

You find me a time when things got tough for Jordan, and he lashed out at his team by giving up and purposely tanking. Find me that time and maybe i'll start seeing things your way.

[samikeyp]

Why does it really matter?

You are not in the NBA to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe Jordan liked some teammates and not others, so what? He was still a team player because he knew he couldn't do it alone and made those around him better. You win by any means neccessary within the scope of the rules. You can have great team chemistry and still not like everyone on your team.

[monosylab1k]

But then why is Kobe Bryant being chastised for exactly the same thing?

he isn't. not even remotely. Kobe is chastised for being a selfish brat who wants everyone to coddle him and tell him he's the best.

Jordan was selfish, but again, he didn't need anybody coddling him and telling him how great he was.....he showed himself how great he was by kicking everybody's ass on the court.

Kobe's eye is on being the greatest player of all time....Jordan's eye was on being the greatest winner of all time. They may act in similar ways at times, but their philosophies on basketball are complete opposites.

[samikeyp]

he isn't. not even remotely. Kobe is chastised for being a selfish brat who wants everyone to coddle him and tell him he's the best.

Jordan was selfish, but again, he didn't need anybody coddling him and telling him how great he was.....he showed himself how great he was by kicking everybody's ass on the court.

Kobe's eye is on being the greatest player of all time....Jordan's eye was on being the greatest winner of all time. They may act in similar ways at times, but their philosophies on basketball are complete opposites.

Agreed...Jordan was focused on les, Kobe seems focused on Kobe.

[monosylab1k]

Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better at ude.

Maybe so. Then again, maybe he isn't the same player without all the negative traits.

Jordan was who he was. Anybody who knows basketball realizes that he had alot of negative aspects to his personality. And I say that all the negatives stem from his almost mentally insane, obsessive drive to win. I don't think he's the same winner he was without the negative aspects. And he found a way to temper it just enough to earn the respect of his teammates, no matter how poorly he treated them at times.

[Findog]

Maybe so. Then again, maybe he isn't the same player without all the negative traits.

Jordan was who he was. Anybody who knows basketball realizes that he had alot of negative aspects to his personality. And I say that all the negatives stem from his almost mentally insane, obsessive drive to win. I don't think he's the same winner he was without the negative aspects. And he found a way to temper it just enough to earn the respect of his teammates, no matter how poorly he treated them at times.

Good post, that about sums it up. Can't disagree with any of it.

[samikeyp]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.

[Findog]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.

82 games and four rounds of the playoffs takes an insane amount of physical and mental toughness to get through. I'm sure all was forgiven once the champagne was flowing, and as mono pointed out, a lot of those guys got big money deals from other teams once they had rings on their fingers.

[Oh, Gee!!]

any man who has won his teammates one championship (much less 6) is a good teammate

[ambchang]

Okay, so what is your whole point? You want to dog on Jordan, but you aren't promoting Kobe or anyone else... is this the whole point of the thread? to simply dog on Michael Jordan? That's what it looks like to me. If thats the case, then I don't even know why I bothered defending him. His resume itself makes all the haters look stupid. No other words are neccesary.

It's pretty much to point out that people who kept dogging Kobe and validating what Jordan did are hypocrites.