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  1. #51
    Spurs are Lottery Bound. SequSpur's Avatar
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    Troll.

  2. #52
    Hot Sauce Brodels's Avatar
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    I think it's easy to say that Parker is going to be among the very best in the league at his position when he's playing well like he currently is, but this talk will subside when he struggles again. Two weeks into the season, I kept hearing that Manu was going to be the second-best shooting guard in the NBA behind Kobe. I think fans tend to take a player's best moments and judge the player on that and that alone.

    The fact is that consistency is an important factor in a player becoming among the very best at his position. Practically every player has flashes of brilliance, many perform at a very high level much of the time, and the true superstars bring their best almost every night. If you look at the top players in the game, they show consistency every night and they adjust and are able to get the job done in practically all cir stances.

    If you look at Tony's best moments, it's clear that he can do some special things. But he hasn't yet done them on a consistent basis. Until he does, he won't be in that upper echelon of point guards. He's going to take time to develop and many have claimed that he just needs more time to learn how to dominate consistently at a very difficult position, but after four years in the league, it's unclear if he's ever going to able to avoid the bad stretches that sometimes plague his game. How many years is it going to take? Nobody really knows. It could take two, four, or sixty.

    Great players also make adjustments. Many will blame last season's playoff collapse primarily on the coaching staff, but in my mind, they deserve to take only half of the blame. As little as Pop did to adjust, the point guard did practically nothing. After dominating for two games, Parker couldn't figure out how to make a positive impact after the Lakers focused on stopping him. The very best players figure out how to score against the odds, and if they can't do that, they figure out how to get their teammates easy baskets. Once the Lakers took away Parker's ability to score, his impact was minimal. That's a step he needs to take if he wants to be considered among the best at his position. He needs to do positive things to help his team win when faced with adversity.

    The point about franchise players is well taken. It's hard to consider Tony to be a better player than Franchise, Marbury, and Iverson when those players are leading their teams to the playoffs and they are practically carrying their teams night after night. Could Parker do that? We can't know for sure, but his performance in the playoffs last season and his tendancy to struggle for extended stretches suggests that he couldn't.

    Will he be the best in five years? Marbury and Francis will still be around, Bibby will still be playing, Wade will be in his prime, and some other new studs may enter the league. It's tough to know that will happen, but I can't say with any confidence that I believe that he will be the best at his position.

    And the point isn't to take anything away from Parker. He's playing exactly as he needs to be playing. He's got great ability and flair. And he's only going to get better. But will he attain a high level of consistency and learn to adjust and make an impact under all cir stances? That's far from certain, and they are traits that the best point guards possess.

  3. #53
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    I never said manu would be the second best shooting guard in the nba
    he can not play 30 minutes regualar to be effective
    he really can play las many minutes as a 6 man not a starter
    he does alot on the court though

    tp was pressing about his contract early this season

    he would have a nice average had he not been

    manu will always be inconisdent in his shooting
    I would still take boozer over manu

  4. #54
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    the point guard did practically nothing. After dominating for two games, Parker couldn't figure out how to make a positive impact after the Lakers focused on stopping him.

    that comes with playoff EXPERIENCE

  5. #55
    PhillyGirl 1Parker1's Avatar
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    Who cares if he's the BEST at his position? As history can tell you, that doesn't always guarantee a championship ring, which is the ultimate goal of any player--more so then even being the "best." I'm sure Parker will be in the top 5 or 8 for the next few years in his positions. So, let the other top 4 or 7 PG's ranked ahead of him get their spotlight and their All Star appearances, etc. Parker already has a championship ring--which none of the other so called top players have and he has a chance to win many more years to come. Other than Nash and Wade--all the other PG's are not on really championship caliber teams. And I'd bet they'd all trade places with Tony in a heatbeat.

    Regardless of all that, Tony is a perfect fit for this particular team--and thats what matters most.

  6. #56
    3-striped Laker Legend adidas11's Avatar
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    Fact remains that if Manu and Parker were really superstar level material, then they would be making All Star and All NBA teams.

    As of this moment, neither is happening.

    Brodels and SpursFaninLA are spot on correct (again). There is a big difference in putting up nice numbers when the opposing team's defense isn't focused on you, compared to when they do focus their defense on you.

  7. #57
    Hot Sauce Brodels's Avatar
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    the point guard did practically nothing. After dominating for two games, Parker couldn't figure out how to make a positive impact after the Lakers focused on stopping him.

    that comes with playoff EXPERIENCE
    I agree with you to a point, and I'm not altogether unhappy with Parker's playoff performances in the past, but I'm going to argue against you anyway.

    How long does it take? He's played in the playoff three consecutive years. I mean, Duncan played really well in the playoffs early in his career. Manu raised his game in the playoffs his rookie season. SJax struggled some, but he hit some big shots in what was essentially his rookie season during the playoffs. The list is practically endless. Many players raise their game in the postseason after playing just a couple of series. Parker's played in like eight playoff series. That's more than many players appear in over the course of their entire careers.

    Again, I'm not out to highlight Tony's playoff failures because my only point really was that he isn't consistent enough or able to make enough adjustments to be considered among the elite at his position and he may or may not ever get there. But I do disagree with your assertion that more playoff experience is the answer for Tony.

  8. #58
    The Dark Dude Dalamar_the_Dark's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder why I get myself into these arguments. This thread is another excellent example of people who post when they cant differentiate an apple from an orange.

    If you think AI, Marbury, Francis and whoever you want to put here can do the same in Pop's system and score 25 points every night and carry the damn team. You can go screw your own ass. Pop's system is great imho cause why? We dont need 1 player to score 25 points every night. Manu can do it. Parker can do it. Devin has shown he can do it. Rose can certainly do it. So can Bowen at times. And of course we have Timmy who does it.

    Go figure. You put Manu or Parker on the Hawks and you will see that they WILL carry the damn team. Cause there is no one else on the damn team. You think Al Harrington can carry the team? Antoine (Im a 3 point shooting PF whos sucks at it)? Of course Davis had a good year at New Orleans last year cause Mashburn cant play and there is no one else except Magloire. Who else is on the damn Knicks team? Only since Crawford is injured has Marbury put up All Star numbers.

    I think the one player who might be better than Parker right now stat wise is Arenas. Why? Cause he is still producing the numbers when his team has 2 other 20 point scorers. But his defense is suspect. Overall Parker is better but is not as consistent as Arenas in terms of scoring.

    I think Parker definitely has the potential to an elite guard but if you guys want to keep spending hours arguing about who the best point guard is. My advice is get a life. Maybe I need one as well.

    Cause if the fella isnt Michael Jordan, then he isnt going to be an outright demi-god.
    Last edited by Dalamar_the_Dark; 12-29-2004 at 11:39 PM.

  9. #59
    Truth, justice, and the NBA
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    People are forgeting that championships don't define great PGs, either. IMO, John Stockton is one of the best PGs to play the game, and he never won a chamionship.

    Parker is already one of the best PGs, and one of the only REAL PGs under the age of 25. He isn't as classic as Stockton or AJ, but he's the best of the new breeds of PG who can slash and create but also set plays. Top PGs in this category include Parker, Nash, Marbury, Wade. Parker plays better D than Nash, but isn't as consistant offensively. He's as good as Marbury offensively but gets outmuscled sometimes by him. And the verdict's not out on Wade yet. We'll see how he holds up. It's only his second year. Wait till he gets an injury and see how he recovers. That's always a true test.

  10. #60
    Hot Sauce Brodels's Avatar
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    Sometimes I wonder why I get myself into these arguments. This thread is another excellent example of people who post when they cant differentiate an apple from an orange.
    Or it's an example of non-homers who know more about basketball than you do trying to take an objective look at the situation.

    If you think AI, Marbury, Francis and whoever you want to put here can do the same in Pop's system and score 25 points every night and carry the damn team.
    Nobody said that they could. But they do need to get some credit for having the consistency to carry their teams night in and night out, something Parker hasn't been able to do. They are consistent enough to be among the very best at their position. They produce under the toughest cir stances. Parker doesn't yet. He's still a very good point guard and is among the six or eight best point guards in the league, but let me know when he accomplishes something like being a franchise player or finding ways to help his team compete each and every night.

    You can go screw your own ass.
    A bit hostile tonight, huh? Did you have a bad day?

    Pop's system is great imho cause why? We dont need 1 player to score 25 points every night. Manu can do it. Parker can do it. Devin has shown he can do it. Rose can certainly do it. So can Bowen at times. And of course we have Timmy who does it.
    Those players can do it, but they can't do it all the time. And that's the point. They couldn't, for example, do it in the playoffs last season when it mattered most.

    Go figure. You put Manu or Parker on the Hawks and you will see that they WILL carry the damn team. Cause there is no one else on the damn team. You think Al Harrington can carry the team? Antoine (Im a 3 point shooting PF whos sucks at it)? Of course Davis had a good year at Charlotte last year cause Mashburn cant play and there is no one else except Magloire. Who else is on the damn Knicks team? Only since Crawford is injured has Marbury put up All Star numbers.
    Um, we're talking about other point guards who are carrying their teams to the playoffs. What do the Hawks have to do with that?

    And who is this Davis who plays for Charlotte? As far as I remember, there wasn't a team in Charlotte last season.

    Marbury does have a little bit of talent around him, but he's carried teams in both conferences to the playoffs and led a Phoenix team a couple of seasons ago that gave the Spurs some real trouble in the postseason.

    I think the one player who might be better than Parker right now stat wise is Arenas. Why? Cause he is still producing the numbers when his team has 2 other 20 point scorers. But his defense is suspect. Overall Parker is better but is not as consistent as Arenas in terms of scoring.
    I don't disagree.

    I think Parker definitely has the potential to an elite guard but if you guys want to keep spending hours arguing about who the best point guard is.
    I think most people think he's got that potential. The question is whether or not he'll gain the consistency and ability to take it to another level that is required of elite players. It's certainly possible that he will, but it's certainly possible that he'll remain what he is right now: simply a very good NBA point guard.

    My advice is get a life. Maybe I need one as well.
    I concur.

    Cause if the fella isnt Michael Jordan, then he isnt going to be an outright demi-god.
    What does Jordan have to do with this? We're talking about Tony Parker's potential.

  11. #61
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    If all star is your measuring stick and if the West carries two point guards for the game then the only player more deserving of a berth than Parker is Nash. Cassell's is playing no better. Bibby is playing no better. And if you don't agree look up their stats and make your case.

    So it's not unreasonable at all Parker will be an all star, particularly if he keeps up his current level of paly and the Spurs do as well.
    Last edited by picnroll; 12-29-2004 at 11:31 PM.

  12. #62
    Hot Sauce Brodels's Avatar
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    If all star is your measuring stick and if the West carries two all stars for the game then the only player more deserving of a berth than Parker is Nash. Cassell's is playing no better. Bibby is playing no better. And if you don't agree look up their stats and make your case.

    So it's not unreasonable at all Parker will be an all star, particularly if he keeps up his current level of paly and the Spurs do as well.
    It's not my measuring stick because it's somewhat of a popularity contest. I agree that Nash is probably the only point guard in the west playing better than him right now. Bibby is playing solid ball. But many of the great point guards are in the east now. Wade, Marbury, Francis, Iverson, and Kidd are in the east. So is Billups, the NBA Finals MVP. I would consider those five or six (Billups is questionable) to be better than Parker right now.

    That doesn't mean that Parker can't excel in the future, though.

  13. #63
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    Wade is a SG.

  14. #64
    The Dark Dude Dalamar_the_Dark's Avatar
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    Nash is playing well cause the suns havent been up against the best so far. Look what happened when Nash actually has to try and defend. He gets put in a freezer by Parker. No Nash and the Suns get whipped. Go figure if you think Nash is playing better. Numbers are all you care about. Thats why some of you guys think Rasho sucks as well. Funny, how is it that everyone seems to be able to see that Bowen can play defense? Is it because its all media hype? Is it because players complain against Bowen? Wow! The fourth estate really works for you guys!

    If everyone thinks there is this problem and that problem with the Spurs, then go support some other team. I will stick by the Spurs no matter what as I have been for a long long time. Good times or bad. Good teams or bad. Every team has deficiencies. This is the salart cap era. We aint the Yankees and we dont have Daddy Steinbrenner. So Ill take having this bunch of guys anytime over what the Suns have or any other team for that matter.

  15. #65
    Guess who's back. TheWriter's Avatar
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    Fact remains that if Manu and Parker were really superstar level material, then they would be making All Star and All NBA teams.

    As of this moment, neither is happening.

    Brodels and SpursFaninLA are spot on correct (again). There is a big difference in putting up nice numbers when the opposing team's defense isn't focused on you, compared to when they do focus their defense on you.
    Not when the All-Star is picked by fans and is never about skill but popularity.

    When players are being voted in when they're injured most of the season, it's not so much about skill is it. You disappoint Ad.

  16. #66
    Mahinmi in ? picnroll's Avatar
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    Five players for each conference are picked by vote and relatively rarely are players picked that shouldn't make it anyways. The remaining seven are selected by GMs.

    I'd like to see what a selection to the all star game would do to Parker's play. Parker is an emotion/confidence player and I have a feeling the "validation" of an all-star berth would push him up to another level.

  17. #67
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    I think Tony will become a premier point guard, I know he is smart cause he signed up here to stay with Tim and the nucleus of what Pop and RC have built. He could have waited it out and gotten more money, ridiculous money from another team, but he chose to stay out of a bidding war and stay here where he has the best chance to win les.

  18. #68
    It is what it is. Mark in Austin's Avatar
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    Fact remains that if Manu and Parker were really superstar level material, then they would be making All Star and All NBA teams.
    I see. That explains why Vince Carter, Grant Hill, and Yao have been voted starters for the past couple years.
    Last edited by Mark in Austin; 12-30-2004 at 06:02 AM.

  19. #69
    Hot Sauce Brodels's Avatar
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    Go figure if you think Nash is playing better. Numbers are all you care about. Thats why some of you guys think Rasho sucks as well. Funny, how is it that everyone seems to be able to see that Bowen can play defense? Is it because its all media hype? Is it because players complain against Bowen? Wow! The fourth estate really works for you guys!
    Nash is playing better, and everyone but you seems to be able to see that. He's been the entire difference in Phoenix. He's the reason why the Suns went from cellar dwellers to having the best record in the league. Nash is primarily responsible for turning everything around there, and he's a legit MVP candidate this season. I know you don't want to open your eyes and see that, but just about everyone else in the world knows that Nash has clearly been the best point guard in the western conference this season and has possibly been the best in the league.

    Let me know when another point guard not named Kidd totally turns around a franchise. If you underestimate his ability to do that, you simply don't know very much about basketball.

    If everyone thinks there is this problem and that problem with the Spurs, then go support some other team. I will stick by the Spurs no matter what as I have been for a long long time. Good times or bad. Good teams or bad. Every team has deficiencies. This is the salart cap era. We aint the Yankees and we dont have Daddy Steinbrenner. So Ill take having this bunch of guys anytime over what the Suns have or any other team for that matter.
    Just about everyone else here is as big a Spurs fan as you are, including myself. It's just that we choose to take a look at the big picture and discuss the Spurs' strenghts and weaknesses as objectively as possible. Many of us actually attempt to see things as they are. You assume that those discussing weaknesses are simply haters or not real fans. I would argue that most of those people are greater fans than you are.

    A forum consisting of Dalamar and sixty clones would be the most boring place to talk sports on the web. This place thrives because people bring many different opinions to the table. It thrives because most people, even TPark, are willing to admit that the Spurs aren't perfect. If you aren't into that kind of thing, why do you bother to come here?

  20. #70
    3-striped Laker Legend adidas11's Avatar
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    The All Star game STARTERS are chosen by the fans.

    The other 7 players on each team are chosen by the coaches. Who are far less "popularity" bias, and look at the individuals performance more closely.

  21. #71
    bandwagoner fans suck ducks's Avatar
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    against the lakers tp was shut down after the first 2 games

    that basically was the first playoff series that someone focused on shutting down tp

    duncan was also shut down

    one could also agrue if mailman was not on the lakers the spurs would have beaten them


    adidass if the fans had no say in it tp would have a better shot
    the less popular players would have more of a shot
    yes fans only vote for starters but that is 5 slots coaches can not fill.

  22. #72
    You My Nikka Nikos's Avatar
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    Amare Stoudamire is the OTHER reason the Suns have done so well. Just as responsible as Nash for the turnaround.

  23. #73
    Multimedia Spurs
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    "Amare Stoudamire is the OTHER reason the Suns have done so well"

    yep, a HUGE upgrade this year, as was his year2 over rookie. Power moves, left hand stuff, short jumpers, FTs all added/improved. Roll his stats back to last year, and PHX would be a lot lower, even with Steve. He's been damn near unstoppable, even unslowable.

  24. #74
    Casper Ghost Writer's Avatar
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    In 2 years?

    Why not now?

    And who's to say the 5-10 other PGs that are young and better than Parker right now won't improve as well?

    Parker is a small shooting guard with a handle.

    He is not a playmaker right now.

  25. #75
    Spurs are Lottery Bound. SequSpur's Avatar
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    He is not a playmaker right now.
    Interesting. I would think that Suns think he is a one dimensional point guard who can't do .


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