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Marcus Banks wasn't really playing anyway even when they had him. Grant Hill and Boris Diaw will share point guard responsibilities with Barbosa when Nash rests.
I'm betting "it" can't and the guy ends up retiring. Kerr's gamble will get him fired after the season.
Bottom line: Suns felt the "pressure", as Pop hinted in his recent comments. The pressure came from the Spurs...and now the Flakers. Suns screwed up, plain and simple.
for Prez: http://devvy.net/candidates/hillary_final.html
Last edited by CaptainLate; 02-07-2008 at 01:14 PM.
Marcus Banks wasn't really playing anyway even when they had him. Grant Hill and Boris Diaw will share point guard responsibilities with Barbosa when Nash rests.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...ge=dime-080207
2. Mike D'Antoni was the first Suns voter to push for the deal … and Kerr was actually the last one to sign off.
This will be recorded as Kerr's first major move since assuming control of the Suns' front office and maybe the biggest trade he'll ever make. He knows he's "on the line" with how it turns out.
"If it works, I'm a genius," Kerr said. "If it doesn't, I'm a moron, I guess."
Maybe that's why Kerr was the hardest to convince.
It was easy to assume that this deal was somewhat forced on D'Antoni; welcoming Shaq could be saying goodbye to a fair bit of the speed and abandon that has defined the Suns since D'Antoni and Nash hooked up for the 2004-05 season. But Phoenix privately insists -- and Kerr alluded to it publicly as well -- that D'Antoni was actually ready to make the trade as soon as it was presented to him.
It appears that Kerr was the apprehensive one, having closely followed the loud skepticism all season about how much O'Neal has left. That's why he insisted that O'Neal subject himself to a lengthy evaluation Wednesday afternoon with the Suns' doctors and training staff before the deal went through, during which those experts convinced Kerr that they can indeed nurse Shaq back to a healthy place like they've maintained with Nash and Hill.
"I wasn't going to do this," Kerr said, "unless I felt really good about it from a medical standpoint."
Said D'Antoni: "The question mark was, 'Does he have any gas left in the tank?' And I think you guys have debated it now for 24 hours and come up with 'no.' And I think you're wrong.
"I do find it kind of funny … first we can't win without a big man and once we get a big man, now we can't win with a big man. I do think he's not going to come to Phoenix and lay an egg."
Last edited by mardigan; 02-07-2008 at 01:30 PM.
I'm not saying Shaq will be a complete bust with the Suns, but that article Mardigan just posted sounds more like the Suns' brass is trying to convince themselves that Shaq has something left. Truth is that nobody knows what he can do or if he can be healthy, and everyone involved with the Suns is going to spin this in their favor until it's proven one way or the other on the court.
I do not buy this bull about D'Antonio being the one who made this happen.
D'Antoni kept saying his system worked and we all know Kerr saw the Spurs beat them last week and had enough.
Also D'Antonio was on Mike and Mike and his story was completely different from the above article!
Hmmmmmmm
Could this season in Phoenix be the last for D'antownedi?
So I'm an idiot because the Phx FO "thinks" there's "something left" in Shaq's tank? Wow, you're so right, no GM has ever gambled and lost on a big trade before. What was I smoking?
Next...
No your an idiot because you think you know more on the shape of Shaq than the Suns front office, which makes you a giant idiot.
That ESPN Article Mardigan posted is scary.
If you were laughing at the trade and didn't believe before, that article will change your mind.
If it doesn't your being plaing Naive.
You should wait to see the guy play to see if he can still even play worth a damn before you go getting scared. If you just have to have something to be scared of I'd suggest looking at the Lakers, who have a possible perfect storm brewing with the genius of Phil Jackson leading Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, and a pretty decent surrounding cast.
Shaq is being worse and worse each year. It comes to the point where he was very average this year.
You can use the "motivated" or "healthy" card as much as you want but the most likely case is just that his age is catching him up.
This trade has the upside to be scary for Spurs if a miracle happens and Shaq rejuvenates. Miracle usually doesn't happen and this trade will make Suns worse, even against Spurs.
It's a difficult trade to defend because it's so bizarre. I considered many trade scenarios involving Marion, all Suns fans did once he announced he wanted out, but Shaquille O'Neal was never a part of any of those considerations. On the surface, he seems like a bad fit, but it's very possible he is the missing piece.
I'm optimistic about the trade, but it's no sure thing. This is a prime example of a "wait-and-see" trade.
Kerr said on an interview with mike Tirico that the doctors in Phoenix figured out "his lift and jump problems"
Yeah lets not get worried.
This is written by me elsewhere.
http://www.steamysports.com/shaq-to-...rilliant-trade
A lot of the national media is whining about how the Phoenix Suns trading for Shaquille O’Neal. They say that trading Shawn Marion was too much to give up for Shaq. They say that the Suns should have stuck to their guns.
And I say the people who are questioning the trade are crazy. This is Shaquille Freakin’ O’Neal we are talking about. I don’t care that he’s 35 going on 36. He’s one of the best players of all-time and even at his advanced age he’s still the biggest and strongest player in the league.
It’s no accident that in eight of the last nine seasons, either Shaq or Tim Duncan has won the NBA championship. Dominating post players win championships. That has been proven over and over again. Unless you have Michael Jordan on your team, you need a superstar bigman.
Sure, there are injury concerns with Shaq. But that was a risk the Suns had to take. They weren’t going to win a championship trotting out Steve Nash and a bunch of athletes. The Suns have attempted that route a number of times already and the result has always been the same.
Anyone who had watched the Suns this year could see the team wasn’t even as good as last year’s Suns team. The chemistry had gotten worse. Nash had gotten another year old and another year slower. If the Suns couldn’t win a championship any of the last three seasons, they weren’t going to win a championship this season.
Instead of being happy with another good regular season and a flameout in the playoffs, Suns’ general manager Steve Kerr made a bold trade to get a proven championship player. He could have easily been happy with status quo, however he decided to make a gutsy move that will either blow up in his face or be the best trade he ever made. Only time will tell.
The bottomline is Shaq gives the Suns a chance. Before he arrived in town, the Suns were a gimmick regular season team that had no chance at a championship. Now, if Shaq gets healthy and the team can gain some momentum heading into the playoffs, no team in the NBA will want to face this new look Phoenix squad.
That trade was crazy, alright. Crazy like a fox.
People laughing about the trade should only point to the Chise's comments about it.
"If healthy its a concern"
Or something along those lines.
Thing is what is more valuable? An average center still capable of dominating at times on a team that has no center or a top 5 (being generous now) small forward who has to play power forward because the power forward is playing center on a team that has multiple players that can also play small forward?
There are few even average centers in the league. Athletic 6-7 small forwards with intangibles are not rare.
Of course it will take time to see if it works. And of course Shaq's health is a huge issue. And of course there will be some adjusting that needs to take place from all sides. But, strictly from a roster balance perspective considering the teams the Suns have to go through in the West, the trade makes plenty of sense.
And, yes, bottom line is we'll have to wait and see if it works out.
This helps the Suns match up much better to a lot of the Western Conference teams I think...also I think the addition of a healthy Grant Hill made Marion more easily expendable to them.
If healthy, Shaq can still give you a good 14-15 ppg on 50% shooting. And he gives you rebounds and a presence in the middle...no matter if he's a good defender or not. Not only that, Suns needed a leader/personality like him on their team. Nash is not a vocal leader and basically D'Antoni was the voice of that team...and not a good one at that. He's now the toughest guy on that team, IMO.
This is why I also think the Mavs need a player like Kidd...they need that type of leader/personality. Avery Johnson is their voice, and he's clearly not getting to them when it counts the most. They need a tough minded guy like Kidd to get over their playoff fear.
After the McHale-Garnett and West-Gasol "deals".
I had called the Spurs FO to activate one of their men around the NBA.
I even mentioned Presti.
They activated Kerr, rather.
Good job Kerr.
He basically sent Marion to Miami for nothing.
Miami is too bad even with Marion, and even next year.
The fact that they are fewer average center in the league that 6'7" SF doesn't mean than an average center will help Suns more than an athletic 6'7" SF.
Marion was Phoenix glue guy. Despite all his whining, he was really important to them on the court. Shaq will need to play better than what he has done this year if he wants to match what Marion brought to Suns.
Shaq solve some of Suns troubles but he will create other ones.
How Shaq will mesh with the run and gun ?
How Shaq and Stoudamire will play together on the offensive end ?
Will Shaq interior presence be enough to compensate Marion perimeter defense ?
Is Shaq still mobile enough to be good on the defensive end ?
When I look at all these questions and when I look at what has done lately, I'm pessimistic about chances that this trade will improve Suns.
5 teams can win West that is the truth.
Not that there are few average centers in the league by itself. The fact that there are few average centers in the league and the Suns main compe ion to get out of the West are teams like the Spurs and the Lakers who have above average centers (labeling Duncan as center). When Amare is the only low post presence at both ends, teams like the Spurs and the Lakers can take advantage of that. At least with Shaq, he brings another big body. Now say what you will about his decline and lack of defense, you still would rather have Shaq defending Duncan and Bynum than Shawn Marion.
A glue guy that alienated his teammates, coaches, and management because of that constant whining demanding respect, demanding attention, demanding a trade. It's a given Shaq has to not only be healthy but play better than he has this year. But, he will also not be counted on to be the number 1 or number 2 option and won't have to play 30+ minutes a game.Marion was Phoenix glue guy. Despite all his whining, he was really important to them on the court. Shaq will need to play better than what he has done this year if he wants to match what Marion brought to Suns.
1. He won't. He'll start it with rebounding and an outlet pass. Most times he'll stay back. It's not like the Suns can't finish a fast break without him. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned Kareem with the Showtime Lakers when Kareem was old and slow. It will be a similar situation.Shaq solve some of Suns troubles but he will create other ones.
How Shaq will mesh with the run and gun ?
How Shaq and Stoudamire will play together on the offensive end ?
Will Shaq interior presence be enough to compensate Marion perimeter defense ?
Is Shaq still mobile enough to be good on the defensive end ?
2. It will take time and adjustments no doubt. But, with the Nash-Amare pick and roll, there's no way a help defender can roll over to contest Amare or Shaq gets a wide open dunk. It will take practice, good spacing, and patience, but Amare is more than capable of playing the high post.
3. Marion's perimeter defense was often off set by the Phoenix run and gun style. What did Marion's perimeter defense really matter most of the time when both teams were scoring in the 110s and 120s? When was Marion's perimeter defense a key in winning a playoff series? How huge of a drop-off are Grant Hill and Boris Diaw?
4. Shaq's value at the defense won't be in his mobility or lack thereof. It will be his ability to defend the post one on one adequately. Not be a defensive wall. Just be there against teams with low post threats. That in itself will allow Amare not to get into foul trouble. And, guaranteed, his presence will help prevent at least a few more guard drives to the basket.
I think there were more serious questions on how a Suns team with Marion and without Shaq defeating teams in the western conference that had legit and productive low post big men in a playoff series than there are now. Not that there aren't questions and issues. There absolutely are. But, there's a give and take. And, we'll just have to see.
Nice one JamStone.
JamStone
I still would rather have Marion defending Parker than Nash.
Off the court things. On the court, Marion was really important to Phoenix.
So it's great that Suns trade for a player who won't play a lot and won't get a lot the ball on the offensive end ?
Are you seriously comparing the NBA of the 80's to today's NBA ?
Run and gun is the most efficient when you have players who can outrun their opponents. With Shaq at C and Stoudamire at PF, Suns' run and gun will be way less efficient than before.
Marion is a way better perimeter defender than Hill or Diaw. Marion and bell are the reason why Phoenix defense wasn't horrible.
I just don't see Shaq able to do a decent job in the post against player like Duncan, Boozer or Gasol.
Quoting makes the post so much longer ... responses in the same order as yours:
1. Marion guarding Parker ultimately didn't lead to the Suns winning a playoff series against the Spurs. Grant Hill and Barbosa will have to somehow contain Parker as well as they can. When Amare is in foul trouble, I'd rather have Shaq's big body against a Duncan in the post rather than Marion or Diaw.
2. Of the court issues caused problems for the team. On the court, Marion absolutely fit the Phoenix style. Off the court issues can leak to performance on the court, especially for Marion had he stayed.
3. I didn't say the trade was great. But, in the eyes of the Suns coaching staff and management, they thought it made their team better. And, it's good when a team that lacks an inside presence trades for a player that provides inside presence.
4. I didn't compare today's NBA with the 80s NBA. I compared an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center with an uptempo transition team with an old and slow center. Eras have nothing to do with it. Showtime was a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Phoenix can be a productive and efficient fast break team with an old and slow center. Has nothing to do with comparing eras. It has everything to do with comparing teams with similar styles and similar personnel.
5. Phoenix defense was still horrible. Diaw is actually a very good defender. How often did Phoenix win games based on Marion shutting someone down? I'm guessing rarely. What good is Marion's defense on Parker if Duncan is dropping 35 and 15 on Amare and getting Amare in foul trouble? Marion is a good defender. He was a good defender when the Suns were a lottery team. He'll be a good defender on another lottery team. His defense was not the difference between Suns being a lottery team and the Suns being a le contender.
6. Shaq doesn't have to be great in the post. He has to make players work for their baskets, play straight up with no double team help, deliver a few very hard fouls when beat, and keep Amare Stoudemire out of foul trouble. If Shaq fouls out but made Duncan or Boozer or Bynum or Gasol earn their points at the free throw line and allow Amare to not get into deep foul trouble, that is an improvement over the alternative ... when Amare is in foul trouble, put Boris Diaw or Brian Skinner or Shawn Marion on those guys.
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