IF duncan wins a ring this year...Duncan > Hakeem.

[ambchang]

If Duncan played C, most of the First Team Awards would have gone to Shaquille O'Neal every year, until 2003 or 2004. He might not get it over Dwight Howard this year or Yao Ming, who have had better seasons.

And that's in a league where C is the weakest it's ever been, not even a blip compared to the era Hakeem played with David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Shaq O'Neal, Alonzo Mourning, Kareem and Moses in their later years, etc.

I used MVP voting as some form of gauge:
Shaq Duncan
98 #4 #5
99 #6 #3
00 #1 #5
01 #3 #2
02 #3 #1
03 #5 #1
04 #6 #2
05 #2 #4
06 N/A #8 (higher than all centers)
07 12 #4 (higher than all centers)

So the last 10 years, Duncan would have been the #1 center in 7 years based on MVP votes.

Also, you pointed out that Hakeem competed in the strongest years for centers, while ignored that Duncan competed in an era with the strongest forwards.

Jamstone made a good point. It's always going to be easier to get it at Forward, because Center is historically the strongest position in the NBA. The top 5 Centers in NBA history are all top 10-11 all time players. Plus you can make it as the #2 guy and still be first team all NBA, as Duncan was many of those years to KG, at least in the regular season.

Make no mistake, when Duncan played the premier bigman in the NBA besides him was Shaquille O'Neal and he played Center.

Your point about Lebron is largely irrelevant given the guy didn't even enter the league until Duncan was about 7 yrs Pro and that was as a raw 18 yr old. The guy just now is entering his prime. Do you really think Duncan makes All-NBA first team this season over Kevin Garnett and Lebron James?

[Galileo]

You, like most people who don't understand basketball, fail to realize that basketball is not all about scoring. Sure, it's the most talked-about stat, but it's only one of many important aspects of the game. And yes, Ginobili has a slight edge in scoring over Duncan at the moment. Slight.

But right up there with scoring is a thing called rebounding. Do you know what that is? Guess who leads the Spurs by a long shot in rebounding? It's not Ginobili.

Another important aspect of the game is defense, especially protecting the rim. Guess who's the best Spur at defending the rim, by a long shot? Again, it's not Ginobili.

Now, I love Manu. He's my second favorite player in the game. And he is CRUCIAL to the Spurs' success this year and every year. But that being said, I never make the mistake of forgetting that basketball is a game of big men, and the Spurs are built around one of the top 10 big men to ever play the game. He is their MVP this year, and every year he's been on the team.

You doubt the importance of a dominant big man? Look at the Lakers' last night. Despite Kobe's 50+ points, they lost at home to the Grizzlies! Because they had no Gasol and no Bynum. You take Duncan off the Spurs, sure, Manu might average 29pts a game, but they wouldn't make the playoffs this year, and they definitely wouldn't be contending for a 5th Championship.

Just ask George Gervin how many Championships he won without a dominant big man.

These comments are right on. I love Manu's game, he's exciting and very good. But he is no Tim Duncan.

You hit the nail on the head, scoring is still way overrated. Just ask Bill Russell.

[Josepatches]

Duncan>Hakeem.
About the 80's if you know something about basketball you have to know big men could score more easy in the past.Now Duncan has always two men on him.He can't play one on one in the low post.
In the past it was more easy by the rule of the illegal defense.Now players doesn't have to be with his man or with the man who has the ball.
If you saw the leading scorers in the 90's or the 80's you will see a lot of centers or PF.

[peskypesky]

Duncan>Hakeem.
About the 80's if you know something about basketball you have to know big men could score more easy in the past.Now Duncan has always two men on him.He can't play one on one in the low post.
In the past it was more easy by the rule of the illegal defense.Now players doesn't have to be with his man or with the man who has the ball.
If you saw the leading scorers in the 90's or the 80's you will see a lot of centers or PF.

An excellent point. The rule changes over the past 10-15 years have definitely been geard towards helping perimeter players and hampering interior players. The league (and a lot of fans) wanted another Jordan, so they've been trying to artificially create one through rule changes.

Hakeem was amazing, make no mistake, but it would be fun to see Duncan playing with the rules of Hakeem's day.

[E20]

Pretty useless to argue this on a Spurs board. I didn't know what GTownSpur was thinking, but then again he is a re .

[mavs>spurs2]

He's just trying to stir trouble. And don't look now but there's been a Bobbyjoe sighting, I know he will have something to say about all this. Get ready for another 40 page thread

[Harry Callahan]

Hakeem was a better athlete in his prime. I think Tim has proven to be a slightly better all around basketball player. Totally different styles.

I will say this, the Rockets benefitted greatly from Michael Jordan's (forced) exile in the 1994 and 1995 seasons.

Duncan has easily surpassed Akeem as far as overall team success.

[nfg3]

No team with Lamar Odom starting will ever win an NBA le.

Be careful - I remember the same thing being said about Avery. And any team that has Kobe can't be taken lightly.

Will ever/never - these things have a tendency to happen sooner than you think.

[bobbyjoe]

You, like most people who don't understand basketball, fail to realize that basketball is not all about scoring. Sure, it's the most talked-about stat, but it's only one of many important aspects of the game. And yes, Ginobili has a slight edge in scoring over Duncan at the moment. Slight.

But right up there with scoring is a thing called rebounding. Do you know what that is? Guess who leads the Spurs by a long shot in rebounding? It's not Ginobili.

Another important aspect of the game is defense, especially protecting the rim. Guess who's the best Spur at defending the rim, by a long shot? Again, it's not Ginobili.

Now, I love Manu. He's my second favorite player in the game. And he is CRUCIAL to the Spurs' success this year and every year. But that being said, I never make the mistake of forgetting that basketball is a game of big men, and the Spurs are built around one of the top 10 big men to ever play the game. He is their MVP this year, and every year he's been on the team.

You doubt the importance of a dominant big man? Look at the Lakers' last night. Despite Kobe's 50+ points, they lost at home to the Grizzlies! Because they had no Gasol and no Bynum. You take Duncan off the Spurs, sure, Manu might average 29pts a game, but they wouldn't make the playoffs this year, and they definitely wouldn't be contending for a 5th Championship.

Just ask George Gervin how many Championships he won without a dominant big man.

Who said anything about the main argument for Manu > Duncan in 2008 being a higher PPG average? It has nothing to do with that.

Your rebounding argument is irrelevant. Obviously any big will have more rebounds than a wing player, but that doesnt mean he's more valuable.

As for defense, Manu isnt the #1 defender but neither is Duncan. That would be Bruce Bowen and has been for years.

Why is Manu the Spurs MVP? Because he's elevated his game this year. He's bailed the Spurs out of many games with incredible 4th quarter clutch play. In many of those games, the Spurs were listless and seemingly tired.

His production in "clutch" situations this year is off the charts. Like they say, in the NBA, it usually comes down to the last 6 minutes and at those times Popovich runs the offense through Manu, not Tim, because he knows that is the course of action which gives his team the best chance to win.

He had a few games when Duncan was out where he was unbelievable, both as a scorer and creator. Manu is not only a great scorer and clutch player, but his intensity is a valuable intangible for SA and his passes facilitate motion. He's also become a good defender.

Duncan has been the Spurs MVP yr after yr and great bigs are more valuable than great wings, but for 2007-2008 Manu has been the Spurs MVP. This isn't about lifetime achievement (which easily goes to TD and also seems to be what you are arguing, even though that isnt the discussion), but about this particular season. There's a reason most NBA analysts have Manu higher than Tim in their MVP lists this year. They've never had that before.

[Gooshie]

By 99 Duncan was better than Shaq?!?

Uhhhh, No.

Shaq guards Duncan more effectively than vice versa. Even at 35 yrs old, Shaq shut down Duncan a few weeks ago. 4 for 16 shooting. Intimidation from the Diesel.

Did you not watch basketball from 2000-2002 when Shaq put together the most dominant stretch of play from a big man in NBA history?

In the 2002 playoff series, the Lakers put Shaq on Duncan in the 4th Q's of every game and he completely shut down Timmy. In 01 and 02, the Lakers and Shaq were 8-1 against TD and his Spurs in the playoffs. 8-1!!!

Timmy's great and you can argue him vs. Hakeem all you want, but no way is he a better player overall or in his prime than Shaq.

What was your opinion of Duncan's "Bill Russell" type of defense against Amare in the 2005 playoffs?

The fallacy in your thesis is that Hakeem has shown he can succeed against defenders better than Duncan (David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo) and dominate but Duncan has struggled with quicker players (see Dirk, who Popovich wont even let him guard and Amare Stoudemire).

Conversely, Duncan has never faced a player as good as Hakeem defensively but we can see anecdotally that players with length and shotblocking ability do help contain Duncan effectively.

All that said, Shaq ranks ahead of both guys and pretty easily...

When comparing Shaq and Duncan, you cannot just say the Lakers beat the Spurs in 2001 and 2002 so therefore Shaq is better. How about the fact that Kobe frickin' Bryant was on his team??? The role players on the Lakers were also better than the role players on the Spurs those years - by far.

Did you not watch those series?? It was Kobe who killed the Spurs, not Shaq - especially in 2002. If Duncan had the luxury of playing with Kobe, he would have easily beaten Shaq's teams back then.