KG or Dirk, who better career?

[mogrovejo]

KG is not a better passer, and his difference in rebounding isn't as great as people make it out to be!

Nowitzki:

TR% - 13.2%
Asst% - 13.0%

Garnett:


TR% - 17.1%
Asst% - 20.4%

To put it simply, Dirk was always a sub-par rebounder for his position. Garnett was one of the best rebounders ever in the history of the league (he lead the league in DR% for 4 years).

Same for passing. Garnett was one of the best big man passers ever, his numbers are at the level of Webber (in fact, higher). Impossible to find a "big man" with this kind of numbers if you exclude guys like Larry Bird or LeBron James. Nowitzki, well, he isn't a black-hole, but he's pedestrian.

The defence is even harder to compare, once again 2 completely different planets.

The differences aren't "great" or "small" or whatever. They're so freaking gigantic it doesn't even make sense to compare.

Scoring, that's all. Other contributions, just forget it.

[endrity]

Well the reason you say that is because you assume that assist is actually a good evidence of passing ability. In order to prove to you how wrong that is, look at a guy like Gasol who is widely considered the best passing big man today yet has average assist numbers throughout his career. Not needing to go through a big discussion of how assists are credited, given some of the peculiarities it's fair to say that at least for big men they are not a good indicator of passing ability. As I said in my previous post where I explained this, KG's highest assist seasons came in Minny when he had the ball all the time, and even random passes were often considered assists. Today in Boston, where he actually allows the guards to do their job, he has marginal assists number, if that.

If you don't believe me about Dirk's passing ability ask Spur fan to tell you what he did to their team in the playoffs. He hardly missed a pass in 5 games, and was finding people open all the time. Even the craziest double teams failed to trouble him. I am fully convinced on this, Dirk has developed into an absolutely excellent passer for a big man.

As for rebounding I also explained it, Dirk has been nowhere close to below average, he's been well above. His numbers are not in the top 5 or 10 rebounders in the league because he doesn't get the extra 2-3 offensive rebounds due to him playing not very close to the basket.

And before we go on to say that Dirk has just scoring on his side, and nothing else, let's not forget that it's player like Dirk and Durant and Melo and Wade that become franchise players, not the Ben Wallaces and J.Noahs of the world. The first job on the the list of an elite player is to be an elite scorer, someone who changes the way other teams approach the game because of the pressure he puts on them. If your franchise player can't be a go-to guy to begin with than he isn't a franchise player either.

Again, having said all of that I can see how some people can still say KG has a better career. He might, but that's not because he is a much better passer or rebounder than Dirk was.

[mogrovejo]

As for rebounding I also explained it, Dirk has been nowhere close to below average, he's been well above. His numbers are not in the top 5 or 10 rebounders in the league because he doesn't get the extra 2-3 offensive rebounds due to him playing not very close to the basket.

Use rebounding rates, man. Even for defensive rebounding rate, Dirk is well bellow KG. Same for assists. Raw numbers don't work. When KG moved to Boston his assists rate actually increased from his last season in Minny. We run a big part of our offence through him. He's that good.

[JamStone]

I think discrediting KG's passing ability is a bit much. There have been plenty of big men who have had the ball in their hands all the time, had the offense run through them, but still couldn't get assists just by having the ball all the time. Look at guys like Elton Brand, Chris Bosh, Al Jefferson. Why aren't they dropping 4+ apg. Even Dirk. The notion that KG got all those assists because he had the ball in his hands all the time, well so has Dirk. Even from the period after Nash and before Kidd where the offense was heavily run through him, not one season, not once did Dirk average 4 assists per game. The logic fails. Even when KG was on lottery teams his last few seasons in Minnesota and had ty teammates, he was still dropping 4 assists per game. Even when Terrell Brandon was the point guard and putting up 8 assists per game and had the ball in his hand a lot, KG was dropping 5 assists per game.

I think it's a weak argument to say KG isn't that great of a passer because it was mostly due to having the ball in his hands all the time. Well, why hasn't Dirk averaged 4 apg even once in his career?

Dirk might be a pretty good passer for a PF, but he's not better than KG. It's surprising to hear and argument trying to discredit KG's passing ability. That's one of the things KG shouldn't be questioned on. No, he's not a Chris Webber caliber passer. But, he's very clearly one of the better passers for a big man and it's not just about having the ball in his hands all the time.

[diego]

player I can see how people would argue (though I dont agree), but career its KG, absolutely no question

also, people are discrediting KG's ring because he had great teammates... well that celtic team was not only a champ, it was also one of the best defensive teams of all time. are ray allen and paul pierce horrible defenders? no. but nobody considers them all time defensive greats (rondo and perkins may develop reps as great defenders, but I dont think they'll reach all time great status, rondo maybe). The bulk of that credit has to go to KG, even if his DPOY shows that duncan got robbed several times.

finally, Im pretty sure people are forgetting mavs players, I don't mean all time greats or even all stars but compared to the wolves... its not even close. Finley was all-nba a couple seasons, outside of the celtics in 07/08, has garnett ever had an all-nba teammate? but the difference isnt there anyway, its at the end of the bench... has there ever been a "fantasy five" wolves team? yeah, thought not...

[Killakobe81]

LOL..you do realize you just used your own hated logic in your own argument, right?..

you said that rings(success) shouldn't measure a player's worth, but then your argument was that Dirk's teams made it deeper into the playoffs than KG's teams(success)..

Garnett's ring doesn't even have to count in this argument IMO..I know most people hate him(not me), but KG was a top-tier player during his prime, along with Shaq-Duncan-Kobe IMO..

While Dirk is a great player in his own regard and the #5 best player of this decade, KG was levels above him as a defender, rebounder and passer..Dirk was the better scorer..none of that is arguable..

THEN you can bring in the ring for the argument..Garnett WAS the best player on that team, he was clearly the leader of the team, and he led one of the best transformations of a franchise that you'll see(obviously with some help)..yes, Pierce-Allen and the rest of the Celtics is better than anything Dirk has ever had..that doesn't change the aspects that KG is better at..

to be fair, Dirk has been better than KG the last 2 years..also, Dirk has never had a championship-level supporting cast, and he does get treated unfairly be many people..saying KG was better doesn't diminish Dirk in any way..

I think this is one of the first times i agree with harlem heat ESPECIALLY the part that choosing KG doesnt mean we disrespect dirk these threads (Player X vs. Player Y) always become heathed and trashing of the player not chosen ...both are great...

But those that discount rings are funny 2 me because some of you use that in the Kobe hasn't won without shaq stuff ...comical! now that Lebron doesnt have one (some of you) say he doesnt have the cast ...rings matter to be considered the BEST you HAVE to have one ...if not then I can argue Malone and barkley as better players than Tim duncan ...because they have stats to support this (not PER maybe) but scoring and rebounding ...and assists ...

Rings seperate the great from the all-timers IMHO ...withoiut the rings NO WAY ANYOne could make the argument Russell is even in the same "ballpark" as wilt ...but les matter most ...