Is Dirk the best offensive player in the game right now?

[LkrFan]

story of his life...

8-7.

[Cry Havoc]

Dirk is amazing. IMO, he's the most complete offensive player in the game right now. One of the best shots in the league, can hit from anywhere, impossible to guard, etc.

If Dirk had a serious threat alongside him he'd be even more lethal.

[LkrFan]

HH, I stand by my point that the Lakers do not have a spectacular offense. Again, Kobe said the triangle offense is boring. The offense can be manipulated on the fly which is especially useful at the end of games and qtrs so that the great individual talent (Shaq, Kobe, Pau) we've had can do damage. And way to cut off my entire quote so that it fits your ty agenda. Good job.

[LkrFan]

Point proven

Says the guy who is a liar, and a man (?) that doesn't keep his word.

[TD 21]

Neither of the guys you mentioned has scored as efficiently as Dirk has, for as long as Dirk has, in the high profile games that Dirk has, while becoming the closer that Dirk has. A guy that is about to become a 10 times all star, quite honestly, shouldn't even get mentioned with those guys, with Stoudemire the only mild exception.

It's seems to me like some fans think of Dirk as some sort of Memo Okur, big man, nice jumper, who has nothing else to fall back on. I understand if a casual fan makes that remark, but a Spurs fan shouldn't. Dirk gets most of his points today from the low post, 12-15 ft close to the basket, very much like a traditional forward. He also draws considerable defensive attention there, and is able to quickly attack the basket and get to the ft line because of it. And while it doesn't get mentioned often, I think Dirk has become an excellent passer, excellent. His reads out of double teams are perfect. And while his rebounding has dropped a bit during the reg season, that is mostly because Dallas has had great rebounders at all the other positions. He still hits the boards hard in the playoffs though, so to me it's a non issue.

He had a good roster in 05-07, but at the end of the day, Dirk needed to do most of the scoring and he did.

The fact that Dallas has the third highest payroll in the league today is a joke. That is purely something that the organization should be held accountable to, nothing more. The Knicks had one of the highest payrolls for most of the decade, but I am sure no one will claim that it translated into one of the most talented rosters in the league. Dirk has his part of the blame for 06 and 07, some exaggerate it, some forget it. But in no way should he hold responsibility for the front office's shortcomings for all these year.

I never said any were as good as Nowitzki or had had as good a career as he has. My point is, people criticize those guys non stop, yet many of those same people gush over Nowitzki.

You probably see him more than me, but I see him enough to know he get's most of his points from mid-range. He usually shoots fade or fall away jumpers over undersized defenders. Anyone who's played the game knows that doesn't take much out of you.

He's not an excellent passer. Sabonis, Divac, Webber, O'Neal, Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, etc., these are excellent passers (O'Neal is the only possible exception, but he's at least a good passer).

His rebounding was never good. He's never once averaged 10. or better (did have two 9.9's, though). But rebound percentage is more telling than average per game. The top guys are around 20%. He's usually 6-8 percent lower. Which is pathetic for a 7-footer.

He had better than a good roster. They were always flawed, but they faced an even more flawed Heat team in '06 and lost, despite having what should have been an insurmountable lead. Then he follows it up by being the only MVP in history to accept his trophy while not being active in the playoffs...because he spearheaded the team that became the only 1st seed to lose to an 8th seed in a best of 7 series. All this because he, at 7-feet, let a bunch of 6-6 - 6-8 guys defend him in the pinch post primarily, instead of dominating them in the low post.

The Mavs have always had one of the most talented rosters in the league. You're seriously going to dispute that? A lot of years, they had more individual talent than the Spurs did.

I realize he's "your (Mavs fans) guy", so I get why you guys defend him, I just don't get why other fans (namely, Spurs fans) do. He should receive a lot more criticism than he does.

sefant, he'll get to 10, 000 rebounds because of longevity, not because he's a good rebounder. He's 7-foot tall and plays just over 37 minutes a game for over a decade. Considering that, it's nearly impossible to not get to 10, 000 rebounds.

[Ghazi]

^post less, tbh

[LkrFan]

Found this gem on another board, but it fits this thread IMO:

Dirk is a prolific shooter, but at 7' and occupying the PF position, what else does he do? He's too slow to be a help defender, doesn't alter shots, hardly even blocks them. When he's lofting pretty fade away jumpers on the perimeter he's leaving smaller players up front to fend for rebounds. Owners like Mark Cuban have tunnel vision, focusing on the one elite thing Dirk does and blind to the distractions. Dirk is not a championship piece, IMO.

[Cry Havoc]

Found this gem on another board, but it fits this thread IMO:

LkrFan still trying to figure out the definition of what "offensive" means, posting about defense in this thread.

[Ace]

Says the guy who is a liar, and a man (?) that doesn't keep his word.

Once again you get owned and change the subject.

[Ace]

Found this gem on another board, but it fits this thread IMO:

This thread is about offensive...

[endrity]

I never said any were as good as Nowitzki or had had as good a career as he has. My point is, people criticize those guys non stop, yet many of those same people gush over Nowitzki.

You probably see him more than me, but I see him enough to know he get's most of his points from mid-range. He usually shoots fade or fall away jumpers over undersized defenders. Anyone who's played the game knows that doesn't take much out of you.

He's not an excellent passer. Sabonis, Divac, Webber, O'Neal, Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, etc., these are excellent passers (O'Neal is the only possible exception, but he's at least a good passer).

His rebounding was never good. He's never once averaged 10. or better (did have two 9.9's, though). But rebound percentage is more telling than average per game. The top guys are around 20%. He's usually 6-8 percent lower. Which is pathetic for a 7-footer.

He had better than a good roster. They were always flawed, but they faced an even more flawed Heat team in '06 and lost, despite having what should have been an insurmountable lead. Then he follows it up by being the only MVP in history to accept his trophy while not being active in the playoffs...because he spearheaded the team that became the only 1st seed to lose to an 8th seed in a best of 7 series. All this because he, at 7-feet, let a bunch of 6-6 - 6-8 guys defend him in the pinch post primarily, instead of dominating them in the low post.

The Mavs have always had one of the most talented rosters in the league. You're seriously going to dispute that? A lot of years, they had more individual talent than the Spurs did.

I realize he's "your (Mavs fans) guy", so I get why you guys defend him, I just don't get why other fans (namely, Spurs fans) do. He should receive a lot more criticism than he does.

sefant, he'll get to 10, 000 rebounds because of longevity, not because he's a good rebounder. He's 7-foot tall and plays just over 37 minutes a game for over a decade. Considering that, it's nearly impossible to not get to 10, 000 rebounds.

I think I have responded to your points pretty much, so I won't lose too much time repeating the same arguments.

However, next time you watch him, please watch his passing. Dirk will never get a lot of assists, because when he catches the ball in his sweet spots, his job is to score, not dish it out again.

But watch him make reads in the offense and then get back to me. Garnett, and I watched so much of Garnett when he was with the Wolves, is pretty much the same level. In fact Dirk will often make more spectacular passes, especially to the centers when the teams double team him. The thing was Garnett was never the scorer Dirk was, therefore he had to create more to make up for it.

But I digress, the point is not Dirk v. Garnett, that debate has been played out way too many times here. The points is, what is Dirk's standing relative to other players solely on their offense. I think it's top 5 and this is where my argument will stop.

[LkrFan]

LkrFan still trying to figure out the definition of what "offensive" means, posting about defense in this thread.

I already posted about his offense - I even gave him props. I knew that if I posted about his defense I would get a rise out of a few _irk fans. It worked.

[DAF86]

Crolf at all the butthurt Mav fans, I only posted that Dirk was a career 47% shooter as a response to a guy that said that he always shot above 50%.

I didn't say anything about Dirk's play this season, in fact if you ask me I will probably say that he's a top 2 MVP candidate right now.

And no, I don't hate him, he's along Nash in my list of players I would like to see win a championship, it's just that I don't think as highly of his game as most of you do, mostly because I think that a star bigmen should be a low post player, over 50% shooter, 10+ rebound guy that imposes himself on the defensive end. If he were a SF I wouldn't be so critical of Dirk.

[Ace]

I already posted about his offense - I even gave him props. I knew that if I posted about his defense I would get a rise out of a few _irk fans. It worked.

Play it off as trolling, nobody will know the difference...

[TD 21]

I think I have responded to your points pretty much, so I won't lose too much time repeating the same arguments.

However, next time you watch him, please watch his passing. Dirk will never get a lot of assists, because when he catches the ball in his sweet spots, his job is to score, not dish it out again.

But watch him make reads in the offense and then get back to me. Garnett, and I watched so much of Garnett when he was with the Wolves, is pretty much the same level. In fact Dirk will often make more spectacular passes, especially to the centers when the teams double team him. The thing was Garnett was never the scorer Dirk was, therefore he had to create more to make up for it.

But I digress, the point is not Dirk v. Garnett, that debate has been played out way too many times here. The points is, what is Dirk's standing relative to other players solely on their offense. I think it's top 5 and this is where my argument will stop.

I didn't say he was a bad passer, I just don't think he's a particularly good one. I'd also add to my list of excellent passing big men: Miller. But the absolute best were Sabonis, Divac and Webber.

There is no debate historically between Garnett and Nowitzki and anyone who thinks there is has no credibility.

Right now, it's top five. Overall, I don't think it's top five, though. You've got to keep some perspective, not get too caught up in what's happening in the present and rely on players track records (progression/regression to the mean) to kick in.

[dirk4mvp]

His rebounding was never good. He's never once averaged 10. or better (did have two 9.9's, though). But rebound percentage is more telling than average per game. The top guys are around 20%. He's usually 6-8 percent lower. Which is pathetic for a 7-footer.

Is 11 boards in the playoffs while having to exert even more energy on offense than normal due to playoff defenses being better good enough for you or are you gonna find a way to undermine that again because of the team he plays for?

[sefant77]

He's not an excellent passer. Sabonis, Divac, Webber, O'Neal, Duncan, Garnett, Gasol, etc., these are excellent passers (O'Neal is the only possible exception, but he's at least a good passer).

Gasol has a career average of 3.2 assist, Dirk of 2.7

Dirk played years in a heavy iso oriented offense.

His rebounding was never good. He's never once averaged 10. or better (did have two 9.9's, though). But rebound percentage is more telling than average per game. The top guys are around 20%. He's usually 6-8 percent lower. Which is pathetic for a 7-footer.

sefant, he'll get to 10, 000 rebounds because of longevity, not because he's a good rebounder. He's 7-foot tall and plays just over 37 minutes a game for over a decade. Considering that, it's nearly impossible to not get to 10, 000 rebounds.

Again you tell Gaso is the far better rebounder when both have kind of the same career average (9.0 to 8.5) and Dirk toasting Gasol in playoff rebounding average.

Dirk played in better rebounding teams most of the times.

So just shut up

[Gutter92]

Play it off as trolling, nobody will know the difference...

That won't fly past anyone but koriwhat

[ElNono]

I don't think Dirk's innate basketball talent is debatable. If his mental for ude would match such talent, his teams would have undeniably won a championship or two already, especially during the 2005-2007 window, when he was in his prime and the league wasn't as lopsided as it is now.
He's definitely a HoF, and will probably retire as one of the best players of his generation. Much like Barkley, he will be remembered equally for his talent but also for his inability to lead fairly decent teams all the way.
I think his current scoring spree is both a reflection that his game has aged gracefully (most good jumpshooters do), and the burden of having to carry a lot of the offense due to lack of secondary options in Dallas right now. As somebody else said, most everybody there cannot create their own shot.

[Roddy Beaubois]

That won't fly past anyone but koriwhat

More classic ST Member references! Building quite the niche there I see!

[J.J.Barea]

What the is up with these closet Dirk haters?

Dirk is one of five players in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.
He's 23/8.5 in the regular season. (career wise & getting better every year)
He's 26/11 in the playoffs.
He's 30/13 in elimination games.

The higher the pressure, the more he steps up. The reason he hasn't gotten over the hump is he hasn't had enough help. The only Maverick to accompany him to the all star game since Nash left is Howard in '07. All champions in the last ten years have had multiple all stars.

[MavFan6488]

What the is up with these closet Dirk haters?

Dirk is one of five players in NBA history to average 25/10 in the playoffs.
He's 23/8.5 in the regular season. (career wise & getting better every year)
He's 26/11 in the playoffs.
He's 30/13 in elimination games.

The higher the pressure, the more he steps up. The reason he hasn't gotten over the hump is he hasn't had enough help. The only Maverick to accompany him to the all star game since Nash left is Howard in '07. All champions in the last ten years have had multiple all stars.

jason kidd last all-star game. i think he replaced someone (kobe?), and he obviously had the benefit the game was held in dallas.. as good as kidd still passes, he's far from all-star material..

[KapitanTutan]

i wouldnt take anything a guy named JJ Barrea spits out seriously

[Giuseppe]

The higher the pressure, the more he steps up.

Please.

[frodo]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL LOLOLOLOLOLOL

it's cuz he has no D, right? HOLY that is hilarious I've never seen that before!

that's why they emptied their bank account and bought Jason Kidd i guess. Kidd has two Ds.