Where Does This Put Dirk Amongst The Greats???

[frodo]

Great point that has conveniently gone unnoticed. Dirk is an average defender and rebounder, to say he completely carried this team on his back is pretty re ed. He carried them offensively which is obviously huge, but its not all that goes into winning a game. For that same reason it'd be stupid to rank him anywhere in the Top 20 in an all-time list or ahead of TD and KG in a PF list. He's definitely a Top 10 maybe even Top 5 offensive player of all-time though.

no one can actually carry a team imho, dirk used to do that the past seasons when he had no legit supporting cast, and the mavs went nowhere further than the 2nd round. dem mavs all did wonderful jobs this year and won da ship as a team. dirk played a terrible 1st half last night to say the least, but the mavs still managed a 2pt lead by half time.

don't get it wrong mayne, we all be mavs fans and i don't think it makes much sense to debate on dirk's all-time status at such a time. we ain't no fan like those manu fans from argentina or e fans from s land mayne. we da new NBA MF'N champions, it's OUR TIME

[TDMVPDPOY]

Definitely not top 10-15. It's not just the fact that he only has one championship, it's the fact that, great as scorer as he is, he's a one dimensional player. I'm not trying to rain on Mavs fans parade (honestly), but it took Bryant winning his fifth championship before the vast majority put him in the top ten. Nowitzki wins one and now he's right there? Don't be a prisoner of the moment and lose perspective.

you say his a one dimensional player as in he doesnt play defense? how much defense did it cost him? remember his a 7ft who likes to play on the wing/perimeter/mid range, even though he doesnt gaurd the elite wings or elite bigs of the league, theres not a reliance on him from a defensive POV if his surrounded by better defenders to cover his weakness, whether its man2man defense or help defense.

his a avg defender....you also gotto remember bird wasnt a great defender also, and he was surrounded by players who cover his weaknesses, did that stop ppl puttin him into top10? i think dirk is around 12-17...he should be somewhere ahead of drob and kg, behind kobe

i dont see any current young players today that could make a case for top10 when their career ends...

[InK]

Duncan had a better cast in 03 and Hakeem had a slightly worst one then Dirk this year truth be told. Dirk ranks over KG now, no debate and is the 2nd best PF of this generation.

[pauls931]

ahead of Chris Paul that's for sure

Fixed.

[Agloco]

Pretty fair list but who was Kobe's superstar? (after shaq)
Now if you say they won without an all-star team-mate that is different. but LOL at Pau as a "superstar" ...

Wasn't Lakerfan screaming that Pau was the best PF in the league After Jim Dunnan fell off?

[stretch]

He's definitely a top 10 offensive player for sure, but most top 20 players are 2 way players for the most part. Can't really think of too many that weren't. Dirk is average AT BEST on the defensive side of the ball.

lol bird

lol magic

[jsandiego]

lol bird

lol magic

Good point. Bird & Magic are Top 10 and they were never known as great defenders.

[TDMVPDPOY]

defense didnt stop dirk and the mavs from winning 50+ games a season...his offensive output outweights the negative defense he brings on the court, but as long you have good players around him that can play defense...it just weighs it out as a team performance....

[TDMVPDPOY]

to the clown who says most of the top20 players are 2-way players

how many of them players from the 10-20 range actually won a ring as a franchise player playing 2-way?

dont give what ifs, and buts cause they had a team...

[crc21209]

I wouldnt put him in the Top 10 of all-time, but Top 50 for sure, maybe Top 20. As far as PF's go, he's in the Top 5.

[stretch]

ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

make no mistake, when Dirk needs to step up the defense, he always does. dude is not a great defender at all, but hes not nearly as bad as some make him out to be. he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

but there are a lot of great two-way players that are incapable leaders. KG is a perfect example. if you cant get it done when the pressure is on, and defenses clamp down on you, you simply are not a great basketball player. fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

[bus driver]

at the bottom, before he wasnt on the list

[JamStone]

ability to be a great leader > being a "two way player"

make no mistake, when Dirk needs to step up the defense, he always does. dude is not a great defender at all, but hes not nearly as bad as some make him out to be. he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

but there are a lot of great two-way players that are incapable leaders. KG is a perfect example. if you cant get it done when the pressure is on, and defenses clamp down on you, you simply are not a great basketball player. fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

"Leading" isn't always about scoring. You can lead at the defensive end of the court. It would be disengenous to argue otherwise. Putting up points can help you outscore your opponent. Not allowing your opponent to score also achieves the same goal. The two go hand in hand. What good is putting up 120 points on a team if they score 121? Same as holding the other team to 75points and only scoring 74. Scoring is the more "glamourous" or "high profile" talent. It's not necessarily the best way to lead. It might be, but it's not absolute. KG was the difference in that 2008 Celtics championship, not Pierce. And KG made his biggest impact defensively. And he absolutely was a "leader" because of his defense. Scoring 15-20 points, but also shutting the other team down defensively in the fourth quarter does the same job as scoring 30 and outscoring your opponent in the fourth quarter.


For me, I agree with most on here that Dirk likely enters the 15-20 range among greatest players all time, perhaps on the border of top 20. So I'll say anywhere in the 15-25 range. I wouldn't scream in protest if he were slotted anywhere there. I put him in the same tier, for example, as guys like Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, KG, Julius Erving, Hondo, David Robinson, Willis Reed. The championship (and winning the Finals MVP) automatically puts him in that group ahead of greats like Elgin Baylor, and Charles and Malone. Where you rank him among those guys is pretty subjective. I'd personally probably rank him ahead of several of those names I mentioned, except for maybe Jerry West and toss-up with Isiah and KG. Could go either way. I don't know. Tough call.

[FkLA]

he is more focused on saving his energy for offense (because his team generally relies on him so much offensively), and tries to avoid getting into needless foul trouble.

what a homer

fact is, the goal of basketball is to score more points than your opponent, and the #1 way to do that is to put up points. defense, rebounding, all of that stuff is extremely important, but if you cant put the ball in the hole, its useless.

no, the easiest thing in basketball is putting the ball in the hole...playing defense consistently is much harder and what usually seperates good teams from championship teams. how did you nelson coached teams fare??

[FkLA]

Bird and Magic were both better all-around players btw. There was alot more to their game then just scoring. And these s have what 5+ les?? Maybe Dirk can sniff the Top 10 when he accomplishes that, as of now he should probs be somewhere in the Top 20-25.

[stretch]

"Leading" isn't always about scoring. You can lead at the defensive end of the court. It would be disengenous to argue otherwise. Putting up points can help you outscore your opponent. Not allowing your opponent to score also achieves the same goal. The two go hand in hand. What good is putting up 120 points on a team if they score 121? Same as holding the other team to 75points and only scoring 74. Scoring is the more "glamourous" or "high profile" talent. It's not necessarily the best way to lead. It might be, but it's not absolute. KG was the difference in that 2008 Celtics championship, not Pierce. And KG made his biggest impact defensively. And he absolutely was a "leader" because of his defense. Scoring 15-20 points, but also shutting the other team down defensively in the fourth quarter does the same job as scoring 30 and outscoring your opponent in the fourth quarter.

Never said leading is only about scoring, but how many team leaders were defensive stalworts that couldnt score in the clutch, led their teams to NBA championships? I don't see Mutumbo, Rodman, or anyone like that being the team leaders on championship teams. They may be extremely key, but none of them have ever been looked at as the team leader. The closest to that was KG in 08 as you mentioned, and that is a ONE TIME case, and still, Pierce is often looked at as the leader of that team, every bit as much as KG was.

There is one thing that every championship team leader has in common... they can all produce points under pressure. That is the ONLY thing they have in common, which obvously speaks measures to the importance of being able to score under pressure. Some are also great passers, some are also great rebounders, and some are also great defenders. Some are even all of that. But ALL of them can find ways to produce points under pressure.

If I am building a team, I will ALWAYS build around a guy who can score and produce points consistently under pressure, before building around a guy who defends, rebounds, but cannot produce points consistently under pressure.

[Ashy Larry]

Good point. Bird & Magic are Top 10 and they were never known as great defenders.

both were great in the team defensive scheme. Magic led the league in steals a couple years but individually, they were brutal.

[TDMVPDPOY]

dirks ty defense, you can always slot him into the sf position and dont put him on the better big on the court, surround him with players who can play defense and cover his weakness with team defensive schemes...his offensive game outweighs his avg defensive showing....hence he usually outplays them unless ur name is bruce bowen...

this finals series or this years playoffs for the mavs, you didnt see any of the other teams franchise players guarding dirk, all you see are clown who claim to be defensive stoppers getting abuse by him on the court, hence if you chuck durant, artest, odom, kobe, wade or lebron on him..they be wasting fouls and gettin into foul trouble would cost their teams to be in position to win games

[FkLA]

did this just compare one-dimensional defensive specialists like rodman&mt. mutombo to kg

[stretch]

what a homer

how so? watch mavs games more often. you would be suprised how often Dirk is a major part of key defensive plays down the stretch in close games, and he rarely ever gets offense ran at him in the clutch. obviously hes not as bad as people think, if teams arent constantly trying to go at him.

no, the easiest thing in basketball is putting the ball in the hole...playing defense consistently is much harder and what usually seperates good teams from championship teams. how did you nelson coached teams fare??

putting the ball in the hole duing a regular season game, and putting it in the hole in pressure playoff situations against elite defenses are two completely different things. if its the easiest thing in basketball, then why the did 4 of the NBAs greatest scorers (Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron), struggle so much to score down the stretch against the Mavs?

obviously you dont know what the you are talking about

Bird and Magic were both better all-around players btw. There was alot more to their game then just scoring. And these s have what 5+ les?? Maybe Dirk can sniff the Top 10 when he accomplishes that, as of now he should probs be somewhere in the Top 20-25.

im not saying Dirk is top 10, or belongs in the same sentence as Bird and Magic, but for people to say Dirk cant be seriously considered as a top 20 player because he is not a strong defender is bull because there are plenty of players who are widely considered top 20 that are not good defenders. and thats not mentioning the fact that, most of them arent even as deadly and versatile of a scorer as Dirk. in terms of pure scoring ability, Dirk is arguably top 5 all time, but his deficiencies on defense is what costs him majorly as is, dropping him to being probably a top 15-20 player ever.

[stretch]

did this just compare one-dimensional defensive specialists like rodman&mt. mutombo to kg

actually, I didn't. at all. read again, dumb ######

[TDMVPDPOY]

For me, I agree with most on here that Dirk likely enters the 15-20 range among greatest players all time, perhaps on the border of top 20. So I'll say anywhere in the 15-25 range. I wouldn't scream in protest if he were slotted anywhere there. I put him in the same tier, for example, as guys like Jerry West, Isiah Thomas, KG, Julius Erving, Hondo, David Robinson, Willis Reed. The championship (and winning the Finals MVP) automatically puts him in that group ahead of greats like Elgin Baylor, and Charles and Malone. Where you rank him among those guys is pretty subjective. I'd personally probably rank him ahead of several of those names I mentioned, except for maybe Jerry West and toss-up with Isiah and KG. Could go either way. I don't know. Tough call.

individually some of those players skillsets outweight dirks, but you dont need to be a 2-way player to win rings if you have the correct players build around you. To say a Dirk led mavs team cant beat any of those players led teams is stupid...

[Henke]

Definitely not top 10-15. It's not just the fact that he only has one championship, it's the fact that, great as scorer as he is, he's a one dimensional player. I'm not trying to rain on Mavs fans parade (honestly), but it took Bryant winning his fifth championship before the vast majority put him in the top ten. Nowitzki wins one and now he's right there? Don't be a prisoner of the moment and lose perspective.

First of all noone said that he's in the top15.

You have no room to talk about Dirk.You have 3,200 posts here and reading this forum for 2-3 years I can guarantee that at least 800 of them were about how much Dirk sucks,how big of a choke artist he's,how he'll NEVER win etc.

You're the guy that wrote again and again that being a big man,in order to win in this league,you need an All-Star/All-NBA caliber perimeter shot creator unless you're Hakeem 94 or Timmy 03.What happened now got?Who was that player in Mavs roster?

You're the racist piece of that brings over and over again lame arguments,like the ''white and overrated'' or the ''bloated payroll'' one just because you're butthurt of Holt being a cheap ass sob.

Just enjoy the huge that Dirk took all over your face,shut the up and move on.

Suck it, .

[JamStone]

Never said leading is only about scoring, but how many team leaders were defensive stalworts that couldnt score in the clutch, led their teams to NBA championships? I don't see Mutumbo, Rodman, or anyone like that being the team leaders on championship teams. They may be extremely key, but none of them have ever been looked at as the team leader. The closest to that was KG in 08 as you mentioned, and that is a ONE TIME case, and still, Pierce is often looked at as the leader of that team, every bit as much as KG was.

There is one thing that every championship team leader has in common... they can all produce points under pressure. That is the ONLY thing they have in common, which obvously speaks measures to the importance of being able to score under pressure. Some are also great passers, some are also great rebounders, and some are also great defenders. Some are even all of that. But ALL of them can find ways to produce points under pressure.

If I am building a team, I will ALWAYS build around a guy who can score and produce points consistently under pressure, before building around a guy who defends, rebounds, but cannot produce points consistently under pressure.

Come on stretch. Don't act like KG never ever scored in the fourth quarter. And don't act like he's a defense only player. In the 2008 championship run, KG still averaged 20 PPG on 49.5% shooting. It's not like he was the equivalent to a Rodman or Ben Wallace where all he was good for was defense and rebounding.

Being a clutch scorer is great and it's something you should definitely consider. You can't use that as the sole or even main barometer. If you have a great defender who also gives you 20 points on 50% shooting but isn't a great clutch scorer, it doesn't mean you ignore or dismiss the 20 PPG or the 10 rebounds. What good is a clutch scorer if your team isn't in position to win the game late? You still have to get there in the fourth quarter.

KG was the leader of that Celtics team, not Pierce. You even admitted that by saying Pierce was "every bit as much" was, meaning KG was at the very least also the leader. Pierce was considered the closer on the offensive end. I don't think many people considered him the leader of that team, despite the fact he was on that team longer.

As for other examples of team leaders who weren't clutch scorers, you have Bill Russell, the winningest champion of all time and Ben Wallace of the 04 Pistons. The Pistons won because of their defense, not their offense. KG is in that company, except he was also a great offensive player. KG is very unique in that regard.

Would you take Jamal Crawford, considered a clutch shot maker, over LeBron James? Please tell me you would in order to support your argument.

[FkLA]

how so? watch mavs games more often. you would be suprised how often Dirk is a major part of key defensive plays down the stretch in close games, and he rarely ever gets offense ran at him in the clutch. obviously hes not as bad as people think, if teams arent constantly trying to go at him.

Im not saying the is an atrocious defender, atleast not at this point in his career (he was earlier). Just that it reeks of homerism when you say like "he doesnt expend energy on defense bc he needs it for offense". And he doesnt get the offense ran at him because Tyson Chandler is usually guarding the opposing teams' best bigman.

putting the ball in the hole duing a regular season game, and putting it in the hole in pressure playoff situations against elite defenses are two completely different things. if its the easiest thing in basketball, then why the did 4 of the NBAs greatest scorers (Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron), struggle so much to score down the stretch against the Mavs?

obviously you dont know what the you are talking about

Yeah, the difficulty of scoring increases as you face tougher compe ion. But so does being able to stop teams ...being able to score in the clutch is extremely important, but being able to get stops down the stretch is just as important if not more. Just ask the run and gun Phoenix Suns.

im not saying Dirk is top 10, or belongs in the same sentence as Bird and Magic, but for people to say Dirk cant be seriously considered as a top 20 player because he is not a strong defender is bull because there are plenty of players who are widely considered top 20 that are not good defenders. and thats not mentioning the fact that, most of them arent even as deadly and versatile of a scorer as Dirk. in terms of pure scoring ability, Dirk is arguably top 5 all time, but his deficiencies on defense is what costs him majorly as is, dropping him to being probably a top 15-20 player ever.

These players that get a pass usually have a solid all-around game despite being average defenders and/or have some multiple championships. You cant say the same for Dirk so yes his defensive shortcomings are enough to drop him into the 20-25 range imho. He's definitely a Top 10 offensive player of all-time though, maybe even Top 5.