samikeyp,
I thought it's been well established that no one is saying Ginobili hurt Barbosa on purpose ... only that the intentional flopping was the cause of the injury.
IT WAS AN ACCIDENT!!! Let it go! Manu's flopping is beside the point. Flopping is not a crime, and just because it happened to injure one of your players by accident, does not make it one! You're not angry because Manu flopped, you're angry because one of your players got injured in an accident, and you can find no other way of venting than to rag on Manu who was doing a perfectly legal thing!
Here in Detroit, we know all about travelling. Rip Hamilton does it everytime he catches a pass and shuffles his feet before making a move.
Ummmm ... I'm not a Suns fan. I was giving an objective opinion. I was born and raised in Detroit and have been a Pistons fan my entire life. I am not venting over an injury of one of "MY" players.
my bad, labeled you a Suns fan, got lost there for a bit
Yeah. That's easy to do.my bad, labeled you a Suns fan, got lost there for a bit
I used to lodge the same complaint while watching Jordan, Magic, Isaiah, Kobe, TMac, Drexler, Vince, etc. do the exact same thing until I realized that traveling doesn't really exist in the NBA. Only the most obvious infraction ever gets called, unless you're a big man who is not named Shaq, in which case pivoting too many times on one foot can be traveling.
It doesn't change the fact that it's all still technically traveling. But only a purist can reasonably complain about it, because everyone in the NBA gets away with it.
That's an obvious overstatement. Manu never does that. Come on.
For reference:
NBA Rules and Regulations
Section XIV-Traveling
a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
The first count occurs:
(1) As he receives the ball, if either foot is touching the floor at the time he receives it.
(2) As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultane- ously after he receives the ball, if both feet are off the floor when he receives it.
The second occurs:
(1) After the count of one when either foot touches the floor, or both feet touch the floor simultaneously.
c. A player who comes to a stop on the count of one may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
d. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with one foot in advance of the other, may pivot using only the rear foot as the pivot foot.
e. A player who comes to a stop on the count of two, with neither foot in advance of the other, may use either foot as the pivot foot.
f. In starting a dribble after (1) receiving the ball while standing still, or (2) coming to a legal stop, the ball must be out of the player's hand before the pivot foot is raised off the floor.
g. If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
h. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball, or while coming to a stop, may not gain an advantage by sliding.
i. A player who attempts a field goal may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, basket ring or another player.
Well DANG those "purist" referees. They call it on Tony Parker all the time (and he really does "travel" frequently), especially during the playoffs last year.
I think that's one thing that's so hard for players to adjust to. So many things are called differently during the playoffs than they are during the regulation season. The player who suffers from this more than any other, I think, is Shaq. They let him get away with all that during the year, and then, during the playoffs, they call it. I think the referees need to be more consistent. I think the whole referee system in the NBA needs to be overhauled.
Psst ... all players who are said to flop on defense, use their quick feet and instinct to draw contact while they are in defensive position. I have seen Hunter "flop" as he went flying from contact several times over the years as a laker, and last year as a Piston. Sorry you are upset, now that you have the facts.
[/QUOTE]Who else on the Pistons flop? .[/QUOTE]
The Pistons, like the Spurs have several players who know how to play defense with their feet. Both teams are solid at drawing charges. The term flop, as applied by the average NBA fan, is very subjective. What is great position, and solid defense to fan of the defensive team, is flopping to the fan of the offensive team. My bet is that if you look at which teams draw the most charges in the NBA, the Spurs and Pistons would both be in the top third of the league. As to charge or flop, I would say the zebra has the better view. And sometimes they actually get it correct.
To answer your question, Ben, Hunter and McDyse will flop in the half court. And even Billips, Hamilton and Prince will flop to try to stop fast breaks.
[/QUOTE]Ben had one flop against a Tony Parker drive in last year's finals. But, as has intimated, Ben doesn't get that call if he just stands there and let's Tony bounce off of him. So, you play within the gamesmanship of the sport ... TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. Manu often takes it a step further.[/QUOTE]
How do you want your eggs? The Waffle was over easy. Sorry Piston fan, but gamesmanship for Big Bad Ben is gamesmanship for Manu and the rest of the NBA.
[/QUOTE]It's funny to me that most Spurs fans can't take honest, constructive criticism. To be honest, Manu Ginobili is one of my favorite players. I think he's amazing. But, I'm going to call a duck a duck. He's a flopper.[/QUOTE]
I don't have any problem with your opinion, even if it is misguided. Manu plays the game in a way that is unique to any player who has ever played the game. To put it bluntly, he has the body of a contortionist, and the balls of a bull. He will use his abilty to throw his body into positions where he is often bound to absorb great contact. As he twists his body into angles where he is off balance yet into control, he is prone to bounce off contact like a pin ball.
Perhaps a physics lesson might help. If you were standing or moving in a conventional manner, in balance with your weight distributed evenly on your feet and moving in one direction, you can blow by hard hits. However, stand on one foot with your weight shifting from side to side in unpredictible patterns. Now, the slightest touch in the right direction will send the biggest of you sprawling to the floor.
In Manu's warmup, he stands one foot at a time on a half inflated rubber ball, reaching around himself in a 360 degree pattern picking up and setting down cups from the floor. This type of drill and his natural ability allow him to succed playing in a controlled disorder, as some describe Manu's game. It also gives him the skill to make some of the freak shots Spur fans and fans of the art we call the NBA, love. His type of game also has him playing by design, off balance on many occasions. With a player playing off balance by design, when hit he will fly. It is not all about flopping. Much of it is about physics.
Manu plays the game
http://p089.ezboard.com/finsidehoops...art=21&stop=38samikeyp,
I thought it's been well established that no one is saying Ginobili hurt Barbosa on purpose ... only that the intentional flopping was the cause of the injury.
You're right, the whole system does need to be overhauled. It's not just inconsistency that's a problem, though. It's the blatant favoritism that really upsets me.
When Jordan shoots a fadeaway, gets brushed on the arm after the release, and goes to the line for his bonus.
When Kobe gallops into a jump stop, takes another step, and dunks.
When Shaq throws his elbow into his defender's face, shuffles his feet, and dunks.
These are all plays that any other player would get called (or not called) for. In the NBA, the superstars are above the law, most likely because the players and the league can see a tangible benefit in letting them score a ton of points.
I don't think there's a league-wide conspiracy or anything, but I do think the refs in the NBA suck horribly when compared to their counterparts in the NFL, NHL, and MLB.
Ben Wallace flopped in the finals as much as Manu. Could he have accidentally injured a Spur yeah, would that Spur player cry about it to the press NO!
I would have to agree. Just because someone doesn't agree...doesn't mean they don't understand.Apparently to you saying "most people can't take honest constructive criticism" equates to condescending talk.
Neither did I. My problem comes when everyone else's opinion gets called into question because they disagree with him. Know what I mean?
In any game where you have "fouls" - that is freebie shots for players who receive unnecessary contact - you will have "flopping." It's just good strategy. If you want your team to win, you are going to try and exaggerate any contact that happens to try and make refs call a foul on the other guy. If you do it too much, refs will never believe you. If you don't do it enough, refs will never give you the calls.
All players take and receive fouls. All the smart ones "flop" a little. Manu takes as much contact as he gives out, if not more so. He's en led to a little "flopping" to make sure he gets some calls.
It's a normal part of the game, guys. Get over it. It sucks when your player gets hurt. Does it matter if they get hurt in contact with another player or not?
5ToolMan,
I don't know if you've read my other posts in this thread, but I have said I don't have much of a problem with players exaggerating to get a call, and that includes taking offensive charge fouls. What I do have a problem with is when a player is barely hit and falls straight to the ground as if he were punched.
I like my eggs sunny side up, clearly delineating the yolk from the white, to show the distinction between two different plays that you are trying to analogize. Ben taking a charge foul from Tony Parker is not the same thing as Manu NOT being hit at all by Amare Stoudemire and falling straight to the ground. My definition of flopping is different than mere gamesmanship and exaggerated movement. To me, flopping is getting a foul call on unjustifiable and falsely predicated contact (or non-contact if applicable). Pancakes!
I don't begrudge Manu when he overacts to get a foul call. But, I do think it's poor play for someone as good and talented as Manu to rely on faking getting hit to get an advantage.
I disagree that Ben ever flops, under my view of the word. Again, exaggeration is one thing, and I understand it's part of the gamesmanship of the sport. Pretending you get hit when you didn't or got that a brush of a finger could make you fall back 5 feet is another. With Lindsey Hunter, I'll give you, but I didn't see him flop much at all last year. And, your assessment on Dice, Hamilton, Billups, and Prince flopping is really unfounded. They don't flop. Manu flops. Allen Iverson flops. Vlade Divac used to flop. Billups, Prince, Hamilton, and Dice don't even take charges. They generally contest a shot or go for steals or blocks. I think you might have just mentioned them for argument sake, because that contention is really unfounded.
All that's true! And, I do think the NBA referees suck. Another think that bothers me as much or more than the inconsistency (or maybe it's just another type of inconsistency), is the "payback" calls. Don't MAKE bad calls. But, if you do make bad calls, forget it...don't give in to the opposing team's coach or fans and make a "payback" call. Start with a clean slate after every call. But, since the players are doing their dead-level best to play the game, I think the referees owe it to everyone concerned to make clean, fair calls ALL THE TIME.
pache100,
Why in one post do you say you're "done with it" yet continue to make side comments like a little kid? Seriously, were you done with it or can you just not let it go?
I wasn't trying to call anyone's opinion into question. I merely stated an opinion that a lot of Spurs fans couldn't take honest criticism of their team, and I think it struck a nerve with you. Now, you want to keep adding in commentary about me. Seriously, are you "done with it?"
I don't know if Ben flopped AS MUCH AS Manu, but he did it a couple of times. Unsuccessfully, I might add. Because Ben is "big" and "strong," he didn't get the benefit of the calls that Manu has traditionally gotten.
I don't think Spurs players would cry if they got hurt either.
Does that irrelevant contention make flopping ok? Not in my opinion.
i think dasagana diop is destined to wind up on the suns, but only if d`antoni is still coach. he will then change his name to dasani diop. why is this thread 4 pages?
I have an issue with this. I am not saying you can't lay down criticism but if someone doesn't agree with it...it doesn't mean they can't "take it" it just means they don't agree. Nothing wrong with that.I wasn't trying to call anyone's opinion into question. I merely stated an opinion that a lot of Spurs fans couldn't take honest criticism of their team, and I think it struck a nerve with you. Now, you want to keep adding in commentary about me. Seriously, are you "done with it?"
Manu doesn't travel, his moves can look awkward but that doesn't mean he takes extra steps.
And your hate for him is only becuase he kicks your guyses asses. Manu is awesome
I agree, samikeyp.
I didn't really specify or qualify when I said Spurs fans can't take honest criticism. That comment was mostly directed to comments by Spurs fans who make comments justifying flopping because a player gets hit a lot or saying " Barbosa!" or suggesting someone doesn't know the game of basketball if they don't agree with flopping ... and other unnecessary comments like that.
Disagreements are fine on a messageboard. But, dismissing the notion that flopping sucks with a " Barbosa" or the "Suns are pussies" type of comment is why I stated that most (I should have said "some") Spurs fans can't take honest criticism.
You're right that I would be hypocritical if I was just talking about disagreeing with my opinion. I should have been more clear.
Fair enough Jam. Well said.
Oh and
Manu never flops and Wallace is a *&#^%@ flopper all the time! AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
j/k
I think that Barbosa’s comments speaks more of himself than of Manu.
That is pure whimper
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