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WTF?? I said a sentence not the definition of defender off the NBA dictionary.
anyway I'd like pistonnation to answer since he's the one who brought up the stats
Allow me to settle this once and for all as to why Bowen should win. Bruce Bowen plays for the Spurs. Therefore he is a beacon of all that is right and good in the NBA, if not the world, who rose to the top of his defensive game through tireless effort. Ben Wallace does not play for the Spurs. As a result he is most likely a minion of Satan and achieved his defensive prowess through an unholy pact with Lucifer. So in the end you really have to give Bruce the award, because Ben is really just cheating.
And now this thread and this entire debate can be closed once and for all. You're welcome everybody.
WTF?? I said a sentence not the definition of defender off the NBA dictionary.
anyway I'd like pistonnation to answer since he's the one who brought up the stats
Even if Bruce is a beacon of all that is right and good in the NBA ...
though shalt not kick thy neighbor in the back out of malicious anger, even if that neighbor is a .
By your logic, though, no wing or guard should ever be in position to win DPOY, since those guys will never block shots and rebound the way that defensive-minded bigs do. I've yet to see Ben Wallace spend more than an isolated possession on a guard; I've seen Bruce Bowen spend entire games on 7 footers. Why is Bowen's ability to do that somehow not worth crediting and Ben's ability to defend down a difference maker? That's ridiculously inconsistent -- besides, if Ben is a marvel as a post defender because he's undersized, doesn't that cut against the argument that he impresses by playing well enough against guards? While I absolutely accord Ben Wallace the respect he's due as one of the premier defenders in NBA history, I'm not sure how you can have it both ways.
My point lies in paraphrasing your statement:
Bruce has a significant impact on every possession defensively because he denies the ball to the other team's best wing or guard, contests and denies shots with man-defense, switches onto teams hottest scorers and most dangerous penetrators, and does that without the aid of double-teams while fighting through screens specifically aimed at picking him off.
The difference is rebounding and shot blocking, but, again, that's to be expected with the difference between a wing and a center. It's precisely why numbers don't work to make the point -- and that inherent statistical difference is precisely why the head-up-its-ass media vote routinely for bigs.
Bruce didn't instigate The Brawl.
thanks shooga, my eyes hurt
Rolleyes
I think I have a new favorite font color.
You should try white.
SW
Shawn Marion. Check out his rebounding and blocked shot stats even before these last two years when he's played out of position as a power forward. Even before the 2004-05 season, Marion was close to double digit rebounds every season and over 1.0 blocked shot a game every season AS A WING.
Andrei Kirilenko. Check out his blocked shots and rebounding.
Gerald Wallace. Same thing.
ENTIRE games??? ENTIRE? I've read about him playing Dirk and Bosh at the end of fourth quarters. But, the entire game? Can I get confirmation on that?
I see and have read about Bruce covering 7-footers that are perimeter oriented. Dirk, Bosh. I don't read much about Bruce defending these bigger players who consistently stay in the post. I just read about Zach and Brand. Did Bruce really defend those two for long stretches and were they in the post when he defended them? That could sway my opinion. And, Ben being a good post defender because he is undersized does NOT contradict the notion of being impressive by playing well against guards because Ben is undersized to play the post because of his HEIGHT. His BULK and STRENGTH is still that of a post player. The way he has sculpted and put mass on his body in order to play the post at this level inherently takes away some of his quickness and agility, so it still is impressive when he switches out on guards.
If Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is pounding the ball inside to the post and scoring effectively, does Bruce still have that much of an impact on defense?
If Ben is holding his own on his post, he still has to be wary of slasher and dribble drive penetrations to help and he also has to clear the missed shot rebounds.
And, yes, inherently, the big men will have more of an impact because of that difference. And, you will find that traditionally, DPOY winners have been center shot-blockers and rebounders. But again, it doesn't stop guys like Andrei Kirilenko, Shawn Marion, or Gerald Wallace from mixing it up enough on defense to help out in those areas. In fact, look what a 6-foot-7, 215 pound Dennis Rodman did at the small forward position.
Neither did Ben Wallace.
Here's Ben Wallace's affect on the Pistons success:
Without Wallace (22 games):
Overall Record: 9-13 (.409)
Points For: 94.6
Points Against: 96.3
Point Margin: -1.7
Field Goal Pecentage For: .449 (739-1,646)
Field Goal Percentage Against: .467 (814-1,742)
Shot Attempt Margin: -96 (in 22 games)
Field Goal Margin: -.018
Rebounds For: 39.4
Rebounds Against: 41.8
Rebound Margin: - 2.4
With Wallace (469 games):
Overall Record: 295-174 (.629)
Points For: 93.6
Points Against: 89.9
Point Margin: +3.7
Field Goal Pecentage For: .440 (16,275-37,027)
Field Goal Percentage Against: .434 (16,134-37,156)
Shot Attempt Margin: -126 (in 469 games)
Field Goal Margin: +.006
Rebounds For: 42.0
Rebounds Against: 41.6
Rebound Margin: +.4
I remind you, my vote is for Bruce Bowen because I don't want him to be the next Vinnie Johnson (he never won the Sixth Man of the Year). But Big Ben is a giant eraser of Pistons' mistakes on both ends of the court.
All I want to say that there are differens styles of defense.
You can't compare marion or gerald stats to bruce and claim that thay are better because of the numbers. This is not a game of stats allthough you can get many of those. Vut you can't look at like it is what defines the player
Anybody chhecked Mitch Richmond stats? Stephon marbury stats? Where are they in the history? What about great Kevin garnett? Superb stats no ring, great indywidual without great impact to the game...
I can absolutely compare Marion and Gerald to Bruce because FromWayDowntown stated that wing players, "will never block shots and rebound the way that defensive-minded bigs do." The belief that wing players cannot put up numbers in those categories was false, in my opinion. Small forwards can be great all around defenders that also rebound well and block shots. That's why I also mentioned Dennis Rodman. I could also add Shane Battier, Josh Smith, Richard Jefferson to the list of wing players who will not only defend the best perimeter defender, but will also rebound and block shots. I'm just challenging the notion that wing players will never rebound and block shots the way defensive minded bigs will. My examples offer evidence to the contrary.
Bowen is great. But to say the pistons doesn't need Big Ben like they used to is just silly. Big Ben is our hope to the champ. Bowen guards the best player of the opposite team, but Ben is everywhere on the floor when he plays detroit basketball. He blocks, steals, rebounds, he does every little thing on defense for us. Without him I doubt our chance to pass second round.
Both of them deserve this award. Spurs fans don't need to lower Ben's value if they think Bowen should get this award, and Pistons fans shouldn't do the same thing too.
I agree with everything you have said. They are like comparing apples and radio satellite towers. And to recognize one shouldn't be a slight to the other.
The Pistons still need Ben Wallace. He hasn't missed a game this season, and the result has been a 10-game improvement over last season. The Pistons were 3-5 without Wallace last season - that's with Antonio McDyess and Rasheed Wallace starting.
They still need him.
Fair enough. I concede that the statistical disparity might not always be as great as I had claimed. I nevertheless think you're overstating the importance of blocked shots and rebounding as illustrative of a player's defensive quality. Is a guy who rotates from the weakside to block shots a great defensive player? I'm not so sure. Is a guy who gets torched off the dribble but happens to clean up the mess with defensive rebounds a great defensive player? I wouldn't say that he was. (and, for the sake of clarity, I'm not contending that those traits are true for any of the examples you give -- I'm just trying to show that blocked shots and rebounds, as statistical measures, don't necessarily say much about a defender). There's a great deal more to playing great defense than ever shows up in pure numbers.
Yes, Bruce spends entire evenings with Dirk, and despite that size difference and Dirk's awesome offensive ability, held him in check. The Bosh game was a crucial chunk of a 4th Quarter and OT -- more than just a few possessions. Same with Randolph.
Sure, if the best perimeter scorer is the opponent's biggest threat. I'll ask the question differently: if Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is left to ineffectively move the ball into the post, does Bruce have that much of an impact on defense? My answer would be yes, unequivocally. And in this era, I think the ability of a wing player to have that sort of effect on perimeter scorers cannot be undervalued.
Now is that true because big men have more of an impact or is it true because big men have stats that make it appear that they have more of an impact on games? I'm not denying that a great defensive big can anchor a defense. For crissakes, I think the single most underrated defender in basketball is Tim Duncan -- it's flat-out robbery that Timmy doesn't already have a DPOY award. But there are wings who can have an effect defensively that is different only in kind but not in degree to the effect that bigs have.
Nov 1 - Melo 10 from 17, 23pts, 8boards, 4assists, 1 block
Dec 31 - Melo 8 - 22, 25pts, 8boards, 3 assists - tough night
January 22nd - Melo 4 from 19, 20pts, 8boards, 1 assist, 1 steal - tough night
March 22nd - 13 from 23, 32pts, 3 boards, 3 assists
so id say melo has had his way with Bowen twice this season and Bowen has slowed down Melo twice this season as well, id say its pretty even. Bowen isnt in Melo's head as much as his first 2 seasons in the league.......
Interestingly enough, Melo's toughest night against Bowen was the Nuggets first win vs the Spurs this season.
Impressive. But, Dirk is not a "big man" in the traditional sense because he is perimeter-oriented. I would like to watch the game Bruce defended Randolph. That sounds extremely impressive.
I'm not saying it's fair. But, over the course of the history of the NBA, big men were the best defenders by nature of the game. With rule changes, some perimeter wing defenders became more notably recognized, such as Michael Cooper and Mike and Gary Payton and now Bruce.
But, again, not that it's fair, but by the nature of how the game is played, big men will be afforded more opportunities to affect the game defensively and that's why more often than not, those big men get more recognition than wing players.
I'll say it again, I think Bruce Bowen deserves the DPOY this year. I got into this discussion when some people mentioned that Bruce was a "way better defender" or that he deserved it MORE than Ben.
oh christ.
I think only spurs fans and piston fans are allowed to speak.
Im referring to nuggets fan by the way.
I think this is good defense at the rim. If a player is defended one-on-one, and he finally gets around his man, and there's a weak-side shot-blocker taking his shot, that's intimidating the rim. That offensive player, after two or three times of that happening, is looking for Ben more than focusing on his shot once he blows by Rip or Chauncey or Tayshaun. That's altering a shot, even if Ben isn't there. I can remember a Keith Van Horn blowing a wide-open at-the-rim lay-in in Game 3 against the Bucks in 2004 because he was looking for Big Ben That's the art of shot-blocking.
Another thing about Big Ben's blocked shots, he keeps most of them in-bounds. The only time he throws one out, that I have seen, is if a player is going off on the Pistons (D-Wade in late 2004 comes to mind) or if the game is well in-hand and he's playing a little to the crowd. His blocks stay in-bounds, and turn into outlet passes that create a high-percentage shot.
Those stats alone - blocking shots and rebounds - aren't enough. But when a smart player gathers them for the sake of the team and not his individual accolades, they are just as important as keeping a perimeter scorer from their sweet spot.
Amen. We are so far behind being able to statistically quantify defensive impact because it's a more inexact science and people don't usually put up posters of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar because he averaged 4 blocks in a season. They put up his poster because he's a 6-Time Champion and the NBA's All-Time Leading scorer.
Bowen is probably the best on-the-ground defender in the NBA. The Pistons long arms and athletic ability allow them to play mindgames with the opposing players by thinking they have their shot, and being able to block it once it's in the air. Most of the Pistons perimeter defenders do their work before the ball is thrown to that player by denying the ball and pushing players out of their comfort zone. Bowen is good at that, but he's probably just as good at pursuing and staying infront of that player after they have the ball and before they take a shot than any other player in the league, including Ron Artest. Artest's style is to play the ball, not the man. And that's a completely different mentality in Bowen.
I don't accept that Gerald Wallace and Shawn Marion are perimeter players. Wallace is playing with Sean May and Emeka Okafor shut down for the season, and the Suns have been without a serious post player for a very, very long time.
You better not. Ben denies cutter into the lanes, forces baseline screeners out of bounds so they are not a scoring threat, is able to stay with perimeter players if they switch a screen-and-roll, pressures the ball by himself in the backcourt, and acts as the security blanket for all of the Pistons perimeter players, even game-planning to run talented wings into the shot-blockers of the Pistons. He's all over the place. And so was Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, and Dennis Rodman, and all of these other players. Defense is played 94 feet if you're good, but Big Ben is the first and last line of defense.
A team can play lock-down defense for 24 seconds on the Pistons, he'll crash the offensive boards off a bad shot, get it out to a wing player as the defense scrambles to find the ball, and there's Chauncey making a 3. How infuriating and deflating that is for teams.
Ben's greatness isn't in his stats. It's just that people who don't watch what he does rely on them to justify the 3 DPOYs in 4 Years. He's not a stat hog.
Gerald Wallace was blocking shots like crazy last year at the small forward position. His rebounding numbers might be up because he's played some power forward. But, he's also playing 4 more minutes a game.
Shawn Marion has primarily played small forward before the last two seasons and he's always been an elite rebounder and very good shot blocker. Regardless if the Suns power forward and centers were not strong, Marion was still playing the small forward spot for four years and putting up crazy rebounding and blocked shot stats.
But you cannot deny that the teams didn't have any even servicable players at the power positions, and that has led them to take on those roles, no matter their listed position.
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