Jesus Camp

[sandman]

the sodomites were bad hosts and so were destroyed, not because they were gay

Intriguing. Care to expound?

[DarkReign]

Define a religious leader? A local minister? Televangelist who has a national following? Head of a denomination or convention?

What is a challenge or threat? To their core beliefs? To their alledged "spiritual fiefdoms" that they created? The power of their influence over other influential people?

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.

C'mon, I understand that these statements are opinions, but they are starting to really get arbitrary at this point. Broad brush indeed.

Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

[xrayzebra]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

It was called the "dark ages".

[Phenomanul]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

That explains part of your dissention.... Religion and spirituallity are two different things. Religion is a wholly humanistic creation. A spiritual bond with GOD, however, is not; it is a divinely sanctioned priviledge that GOD himself extends to any and all who will listen and accept. A spiritually receptive connection with GOD was ordained by the Creator himself; established out of GOD's love for humanity. It is in our nature to seek out truth - guess who placed that desire in the very fabric of our being?

GOD is the full manifestation of absolute TRUTH; when we genuinely seek TRUTH that path should always lead us to GOD. Unfortunately, men foolishly place their own wisdom above GOD's and in doing so, they reject the TRUTH.

Again, people who see themselves as religious see their 'religiousness' as facet of their life... you are right in exposing their inherent hypocrisy... Genuine spirituallity, on the other hand, is a way of life. It is manifested by a person's at udes, by their show of restraint, by their service, by their integrity, by their love for others - if a person is truly being led by the Holy Spirit one will see these characteristics and attributes manifested in each and every relationship that is nurtured by that person.

Granted of course that people need to realize that no one is perfect; some simply seek to justify their own actions by pointing out the imperfections of those around them. These people usually end up bitter in the end.

[DarkReign]

You and I have reached an absolute agreement. I couldnt agree with your post anymore than I already do. I should have dilineated spirtuality and religion myself, but I dont think I could have put a finer point on it than you did.

[sandman]

Bingo. Once upon a time the church ran everything in western society, very similar to (if not moreso) how Islam dictates everything in middle eastern culture today.

The lust for power knows not the limits of piety.



Of course theyre broadbrush, they have to be. The need or usefulness of a bloated church and belief system have long since lost its relevance. I dont mean to suggest that humanity do away entirely of religion, but I do mean that humanity should rank its importance far below government, civil service, family and general welfare.

Its very structure and former glories are relics better suited to history books than frontpage tabloidism.

If you don't necessarily have issues with a religious individual, where do you draw the line? I can be religious, but it is a bloated religious system if I choose to locally congregate with a few others who share my same belief system? Or is it only at the denominational or religion level that it is bloated, outdated and self-serving? Is individual worship the only acceptable method of religion?

EDIT: I wholeheartedly agree with the exchange between you and Phenomanul. I just had this in preview mode for a while as I stepped away and did not see your posts.

[clambake]

That was near perfect, Phenomanul.

However, that still will not protect the pawns of sacrifice from the mixture of politics and religion. Mortal man has a goal that's self-serving. It's how to stay on top of the wake of the dying.

[sandman]

That was near perfect, Phenomanul.

However, that still will not protect the pawns of sacrifice from the mixture of politics and religion. Mortal man has a goal that's self-serving. It's how to stay on top of the wake of the dying.

A very valid point. Once you separate people of faith from people of religion, it is easy to see how the trappings of religion has played into that self-serving nature of man.

[turambar85]

Yes, GOD is LOVE, but he is also HOLY and JUST. His presence cannot be defiled by sin or tainted by unholiness. will be the place of eternal separation from GOD, sin will be cast out from creation and sent to precisely because of the fact that GOD is HOLY.

Then, as stated, make for people who are bad, sinful people, and heaven for people who are not. Whether or not you have heard of God, or sent her a Christmas card should not be important.

Furthermore, salvation is not based solely on the belief in GOD but rather upon embracing the redeeming role of JESUS. Consider this; Satan and his minions believe in GOD, yet their eternal fate has been sealed in the lake of fire - they will not be 'saved'.

Even more narrow in definition and egomaniacal. They believed in God, but were evil and wicked minded. If they had believed in God, yet had been solid little God-ites, they would have remained. This is further proof for my belief that the Bible has been distorted by translators to strengthen the church, but that the original meaning would suggest that good people go, not idol-worshippers. And yes, I believe every-1 who worships God, yet thinks "he" is a "he" with male anatomical parts is worshipping a false idol, as that is anthropromorphism, applying man-like atttributes to the supreme deity.

In other words, those who reject the message of JESUS will not be saved. You may find that to be exclusive, and frankly... it is. Some things have to be defined in black and white.... And unlike everthing in our 'Politically Correct' world... not everything has to be gray.

It would be black and white. All those who try to follow the teachings of Christ, or Ghandi even, and remain good people go to Heaven. God is a big "boy", "he/she" can handle it.

It's a good point, but if you read Romans Chapter 1... it says that "men are without excuse". Those who choose to reject the message of JESUS do so out of their own stubborness, convenience or hatred. Some people believe that those who earnestly never had a chance of making said decision during their time here on earth, will in fact have an extra opportunity to accept/reject the message of JESUS... To outline the specifics of such cir stances would be speculation on my part however.

No, see I don't buy Romans, or epeleptic Paul who wrote it. It is not stubborness. If you heard of Allah and Mohammed, do you reject because you are stubborn and refuse to believe the truth? No! You do so because you have seen the Christian light. Well, that believe in their religion every bit as strongly as you do, so you can't blame them for not converting. And many Muslims are not sat down with and told the great story about why they are wrong. There aren't enough ballsy missionaries to go around.

A tad bit subjective don't you think.

No, I do not think it is subjective to say that the good, pure people go to heaven, while the selfish egocentric backstabbing bas s do not. God is all powerful, and can surely handle something so simple as deciding who tried to live a good life.

We were created to fulfill a purpose... for GOD's glory. Obedience then, is one of the quintessential forms of worship because it openly embraces our subservience to the King of Kings. Those who reject GOD, however, fail to acknowledge this order and ultimately fall out of GOD's Grace. A common error is that people don't really understand what worship really means.

Again, youre preaching to one who was recently part of the choir. I know the definition of worship here, and wholeheartedly reject this as part of God's plan or wish. I believe mankind has perverted the Bible and God's teachings.

We are likely at an impasse because you will never believe otherwise without risking eternal damnation, and I will never be convinced unless it is with logic and not the Bible, because, as I said, I believe it to have been perverted.

[sandman]

Everyone is en led to their opinion. Thanks for sharing yours.

[2centsworth]

All those who try to follow the teachings of Christ, or Ghandi even, and remain good people go to Heaven.

Isiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. "

No one is good when compared to God.

Again, youre preaching to one who was recently part of the choir. I know the definition of worship here, and wholeheartedly reject this as part of God's plan or wish. I believe mankind has perverted the Bible and God's teachings.

There's a reason the bible has sold more copies than any other book. Also, most major religions reference the bible and it's stories (Islam and Mormons).

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

[xrayzebra]

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

Because he gave us the one thing no other
animal has. Free Will. And the ability to choose
between right and wrong.

[turambar85]

Because he gave us the one thing no other
animal has. Free Will. And the ability to choose
between right and wrong.

Damn it to . X-ray has said something I agree with.

[sandman]

Damn it to . X-ray has said something I agree with.

Should I be looking for natural disasters to start occurring globally, or just a funky alignment of the planets in the sky tonight?

[turambar85]

Should I be looking for natural disasters to start occurring globally, or just a funky alignment of the planets in the sky tonight?

The funky alignment of the sky, actually.

[sandman]

The funky alignment of the sky, actually.

Just as long as doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

[turambar85]

Just as long as doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

That, and I will feel bad for saying this, will happen in a few decades when Hillary Clinton finds her way back home.

[DarkReign]

Just as long as doesn't freeze over. That would Inconvenient to Al Gore.

[turambar85]

There's a reason the bible has sold more copies than any other book. Also, most major religions reference the bible and it's stories (Islam and Mormons).

It's God's devine word and as powerful as God is why would he let man pervert his word?

Uhm, sales has little to do with truth or validity. The Bible has so many sales because there are so many Christians. Just because a ton of people saw "An Inconvenient Truth" did not mean that you automatically decided global warming was real, did it?

As for the divinity of God's word leading to the perfection of the scripture...give me a break. Major fallacy. The Kuran is supposed to be God's word, and it is allowed to exist. God didnt strike the book dead in it's tracks. There are tons of books that are supposed to be God's divine word.

Weak.

[Guru of Nothing]

Random interjection...

For those truly enamored by this topic, I cannot overemphasize my recommendation that y'all watch the film Searching for the Wrong-Eyed Jesus.

Dude does go a bit artsy on the viewer, but the people in the film are unforgettable.

Also, if I may add, this film will not sway anyone's opinion - nor was it meant to.

http://www.searchingforthewrongeyedjesus.com/

[leemajors]

20 minutes into this movie and my stomach is doing flips. the homeschooling part with levi is sickening.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh man, thats nothing. It just gets worse and worse.

[leemajors]

Oh man, thats nothing. It just gets worse and worse.

i would agree now, this is every bit as brutal as requiem for a dream. descent.

[Phenomanul]

Don't judge the whole for the action of a few extremists....


Hmmm where have I heard this before?

[Phenomanul]

http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5702
^--this is a good read, despite that this guy differs from my point of view

sadly, as usual the 'scholarly' articles aren't free...dumbass intellectuals pricing themselves out of public discourse --- but here's the best link i could find http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2...6-11959180_ITM

Then care to explain how that is coherent with the message in Romans 1? The sodomites were bad hosts because they wanted to sexually befriend the 'two men' that came to Lot's house. Being sexually perverse describes why they were bad hosts; the two concepts are related and cannot be dissociated.