Suns

[mabber]

they do NOT play much defense at all. the Mavericks a few years ago, when they lost to the Spurs in the WCF, were actually a pretty decent defensive team... statisically. they allowed only 95 ppg, and .438% shooting. however, would anyone that watched the Mavericks even say that they were even a DECENT defensive team? not at all. a lot of it was because they intimidated crappy opponents. teams would just see how good their offense was, and think that they had to outscore them, and would end up failing and taking all kinds of dumb shots. but smart teams like the Spurs and Lakers know exactly how to beat the Mavericks. they knew that you could let them jump to a nice lead, but they would eventually get back into the game, because the Mavs relied too much on the jumpshot, and that they (spurs and lakers) could play defense and rebound, but the Mavericks couldn't. its the same thing with the Suns. they intimidate ty opponents who are stupid and think that the only way to beat them is to outscore them, thus leading to a number of quick, dumb shots, and stupid mistakes. but teams that play defense and rebound, like the Mavericks and Spurs, know that they can just play their style, and eventually the Suns will fall apart, due to their reliance on jump shots, and their inability to defend and rebound.

the fact is, if you cannot either rebound the ball, or play defense, you cannot win. despite the fact that you said you think the Suns play defense (which it COMPLETELY wrong), you admitted that they are not a good rebounding team. rebounding is a part of defense too. rebounding prevents your opponents from having a chance to score, which is ultimately what defense is. you play defense to keep your opponent from scoring. if you let them get offensive boards and easy putbacks, then you basically are not playing good defense. you HAVE to be a good rebounding team to win games. every le winning team has always had 2 things in common... they could play defense and rebound the ball well. some had great offenses, others had ty offenses. but they ALL could play defense and rebound. and as much as you may think it will (as I did previously with the Mavs), it will never change. the Suns will NOT win a le, playing the way they do. they can get to the WCF 10 years in a row, but it wont mean anything, because they will never win a le until they play defense and rebound.

Not that you care, but no one is ever going to take you seriously unless you concede something to the other side. If the Mavs were as great as you say they are they'd have won a le by now-lol If the Suns were as lame as you say they are they wouldn't be making conference championship series.

How do you know the Suns haven't turned a corner on defense this season? Have you watched all their games? I doubt it! You realize you're saying the exact same things that have been said about the Mavs for the last 5 seasons and they managed to change and get to the finals (but they didn't win). You act as if the Mavs are on par with the Spurs when in reality the Mavs haven't done squat but improve their game and move one step farther in the playoffs. The Spurs have won multiple les. Until Dallas wins a le or two, they are much more like the Suns than the Spurs in reality (perception doesn't count in my book). I'm a huge Mav fan and would like to think that the Mavs will win the le this season but until they do, they're just lumped in with all the other teams like Phoenix & Kings(of past years).

I can really understand why Spur fans get annoyed with some of the Mav posters. Some of you act like the Mavs have actually won something...and they haven't.

[stretch]

How would you know? Your team still hasn't won a le.

I've been reading post after post of you saying "what it takes to win a le" and "everyone who has watched the NBA should know that" and "blah, blah, I'm gay, blah, blah" but I want to know what leg(s) you have to stand on in this argument. That your team made it to the Finals? Ok, congrats, but they didn't win it - the Suns have been there twice and lost 4-2 both times, but never by 4 straight.

I just don't know where you get off saying the Mavs are the elite in the NBA and that the Suns still play "no defense." If we want to talk about dip comments, there's one right there that keeps repeating itself in each of your posts.

For your enjoyment, here is Charley Rosen's take on your current team:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6132620

And on his list of current "most overrated players," here is his take on your boy:

"Dirk Nowitzki [is overrated] for still being soft in the clutch."


Since last year is your guage for everything regarding the Suns, I want to look up Dirk's 4th-quarter numbers in the Finals, but I don't have the energy, so I'll remind you: they're not stellar.

first off, Charley Rosen is an incredibly biased writer. most people know that. second, i know what it takes to win a le by seeing how the Mavs have failed and failed again, while watching other teams succeed and win les, doing what the Mavericks COULDNT do. your favorite team doesnt have to win a le, for someone to know what is necessary to win a le. and the fact that you are acting like the Suns are suddenly a better team just because they lost the finals 4-2, but not by losing 4 straight shows how much of a bag you are. the fact is, both teams have not won a le. it doesnt matter how you win or lose, the fact is you did.

[Bob Lanier]

What else do I have to say to prove to you that rebounding is more than just a "God-given skill"?

A skil is by definition not "God-given"; it is acquired and developed. Development of rebounding skills usually occurs early in a player's career, i.e. before they make it to the NBA level, and it is rare but it's not unheard-of for a player (like Antonio McDyess, Dirk Nowitzki, or apparently Amare Stoudemire) to progress from poor rebounders to good one or two-space rebounders by working on fundamentals mid-career. But it is unreasonable to expect that -three!- players who have never been very good rebounders will suddenly and miraculously develop the skillset to "step up and make a concerted effort to start rebounding". And it is virtually unheard-of for poor rebounders to develop into great (three or four-space) rebounders this late in their careers.

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the Mavericks (and Spurs, Lakers and Jazz!) are not very much, if at all better than the Suns. None of them is a great team, and each has glaring weaknesses that are unlikely to be addressed this season.

[The_Game]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn y considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the le. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.

[stretch]

Not that you care, but no one is ever going to take you seriously unless you concede something to the other side. If the Mavs were as great as you say they are they'd have won a le by now-lol If the Suns were as lame as you say they are they wouldn't be making conference championship series.

How do you know the Suns haven't turned a corner on defense this season? Have you watched all their games? I doubt it! You realize you're saying the exact same things that have been said about the Mavs for the last 5 seasons and they managed to change and get to the finals (but they didn't win). You act as if the Mavs are on par with the Spurs when in reality the Mavs haven't done squat but improve their game and move one step farther in the playoffs. The Spurs have won multiple les. Until Dallas wins a le or two, they are much more like the Suns than the Spurs in reality (perception doesn't count in my book). I'm a huge Mav fan and would like to think that the Mavs will win the le this season but until they do, they're just lumped in with all the other teams like Phoenix & Kings(of past years).

I can really understand why Spur fans get annoyed with some of the Mav posters. Some of you act like the Mavs have actually won something...and they haven't.

when did i ever say ANYTHING about the Mavericks winning a le and being great, etc...? when did i ever say the Suns were lame either? my entire ing point is that you MUST rebound the ball, and play defense to win a championship, and that the Mavs and Spurs do that much better than the Suns, which is why the Suns will not beat either the Mavs or the Spurs. anyone that knows anything about basketball knows that you must play defense and rebound to win in the playoffs. as a Mavs fan, you of all people should ing know that, seeing how our team has failed miserably time after time, due to their lack of defense and rebounding.

[stretch]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn y considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the le. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.

you ing moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the le, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my ing posts you faced head. you must rebound and play defense to win a le. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.

[dirk4mvp]

you ing moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the le, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my ing posts you faced head. you must rebound and play defense to win a le. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

[mabber]

This Stretch moron is exactly why mavs fans are hated

too damn y considering you have yet to prove anything. you didn't win the le. Yes you beat the spurs credit to you but you barely go by the suns when they were without their superstar. don't use the defense theory..defense is not why suns lost. The Mavs just had more bodies. More depth. That was the only reason.

I'm a Mav fan and I don't even like him

He makes a few good points but has no clue how to intelligently articulate them without coming across as an arrogant asshole.

[The_Game]

you ing moron. all i have said is to win in the playoffs, you MUST REBOUND AND PLAY DEFENSE. i never ONCE said the Mavs are locks to win the le, better than the spurs, blah blah blah... read my ing posts you faced head. you must rebound and play defense to win a le. plain and simple. that is ALL i have been saying.

Well done you just proved my point

It's also obvious you are still in your teens. Stay off the crack kid. It's obvious to see when you post. You need to see some help for your language.

[stretch]

I'm a Mav fan and I don't even like him

He makes a few good points but has no clue how to intelligently articulate them without coming across as an arrogant asshole.

thats right. i am an arrogant asshole. im an arrogant asshole because people here are too ing stupid to simply look at every NBA champion in history, and see that they all were able to win the le because they played defense and rebounded well, and that the Suns do not, and I have simply been pointing that out. i never once said anything about the Mavs being so great as some people said. but they do play more defense, and rebound the ball better. i admitted that. but the fact is, the Suns do not, which is why they will not win an NBA le.

[stretch]

Well done you just proved my point

It's also obvious you are still in your teens. Stay off the crack kid. It's obvious to see when you post. You need to see some help for your language.

mother ing sucking . is that better?

[RonMexico]

first off, Charley Rosen is an incredibly biased writer. most people know that. second, i know what it takes to win a le by seeing how the Mavs have failed and failed again, while watching other teams succeed and win les, doing what the Mavericks COULDNT do. your favorite team doesnt have to win a le, for someone to know what is necessary to win a le. and the fact that you are acting like the Suns are suddenly a better team just because they lost the finals 4-2, but not by losing 4 straight shows how much of a bag you are. the fact is, both teams have not won a le. it doesnt matter how you win or lose, the fact is you did.

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a le any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.

[The_Game]

Suns defense is not bad at all, It has become quite decent. Their rebounding is far more improved as well

they will need to play some D and rebound yes but there is no reason why they won't. They have a GREAT frontcourt. Amare, Marion,Diaw can all rebound the ball and i won't be surprised if they do a good job at It in the playoffs.

Getting the 1st seed is key to won wins it all IMO. get first seed and you avoid one of the other in the 2nd round.

still think all 3 teams...spurs,mavs and suns have an equal chance of going all the way.

[RonMexico]

thats right. i am an arrogant asshole. im an arrogant asshole because people here are too ing stupid to simply look at every NBA champion in history, and see that they all were able to win the le because they played defense and rebounded well, and that the Suns do not, and I have simply been pointing that out. i never once said anything about the Mavs being so great as some people said. but they do play more defense, and rebound the ball better. i admitted that. but the fact is, the Suns do not, which is why they will not win an NBA le.

You don't know what you're talking about. There have been plenty of NBA Champions that didn't play the best defense or were the best rebounding team in the league. Get your head out of your ass - the Mavs aren't a shining example of what it takes to win a le, so jump down off your high horse. Their defense isn't that great compared to last year.

[stretch]

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a le any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.

knowing what it takes to win, and your team having what it takes are two completely different things. i know what a team needs to win a le. all we have to do is look at the Spurs. they are a great model of a true le contending team. the fact is, i was not once bragging about the Mavs. all i was simply pointing out, is that the Suns dont rebound the ball well, or play good defense. and in order to win a le, you must do those things. personally, i actually like the Suns a lot. i really wish they could win a le, if the Mavs dont. but i know they wont, because they are exactly like the Mavs were a few years ago, in their inability to rebound and play good defense. that is all i was trying to point out. i never once meant to give an air of superiority or anything like that. i apologize if doing so. but my whole point, is that teams that dont rebound or play defense, cannot win a le. that is all i was trying to say, and a lot of people here completely took that out of context.

[stretch]

You don't know what you're talking about. There have been plenty of NBA Champions that didn't play the best defense or were the best rebounding team in the league. Get your head out of your ass - the Mavs aren't a shining example of what it takes to win a le, so jump down off your high horse. Their defense isn't that great compared to last year.

i didnt say the BEST defense, or the BEST rebounding team. but they all were at least decent, and could do both when they needed it. the Suns cannot. again, i never once said that the mavs are a model of what it takes to win a le. read what i said again.

[mabber]

Rosen is really biased towards the Lakers, but I think he makes a strong analysis when it comes to the Mavericks offseason moves and what these players have to produce to make the team successful. He basically agrees with me about "JET" not having any defensive capability and Dirk for being soft. I'll find some other sources and give you a bibliography if you need it.

I'm not trying to say that two Suns Finals appearences in 1976 and 1993 mean they're the better team right now. I'm just trying to put a little perspective on your comments. Just because your team made the Finals last year, doesn't mean they have "what it takes" right now to win a le any more than the Spurs, the Suns, or the Jazz. Back in 1994 and 95, I could have been saying I knew what it took to win the championship, but the Suns lost twice in a row to the eventual champion (Rockets) in 7-games.

The Suns have the 4th highest winning percentage of any team in the NBA (behind Celtics, Spurs, and Lakers) and that is an indicator of continued success throughout 38 years of a franchise. A little foray into the Finals does not make your team the class or elite of the NBA right now, especially based on their subsequent choke-job. I don't have a problem with Spurs fans coming in an placing a high-value tag on their franchise, but I do have a problem with little pissants like you taking the first Finals appearence in your team's history to mean you're a lock for being the "best in the West" despite your 4th place standing as of today.

I agree with Dirk being soft and Jet not being a good defender, but you said (in earlier post) Dirk & Jet were not very clutch which I disagree with big time.

Outside of all the big time, clutch shots that Dirk has made in the regular seasons, he hit a game winning shot vs. the Griz in playoffs last season. He hit the biggest shot of the season (then made free throw) to send game 7 into OT vs. Spurs last season. He scored 50 pts on the Suns after they had taken all momentum away in the WCF's last season.

All I know about Jet is that I've seen him hit dozens of big shots over the last 2 years. Maybe only one or two game winning shots but he never gets the opportunity since Dirk is there.

[RonMexico]

But it is unreasonable to expect that -three!- players who have never been very good rebounders will suddenly and miraculously develop the skillset to "step up and make a concerted effort to start rebounding". And it is virtually unheard-of for poor rebounders to develop into great (three or four-space) rebounders this late in their careers.

Kurt Thomas has always been a pretty solid rebounder from his days in college where he was one of only 3 people in NCAA history to average a double-double in a season to his career in New York. He just doesn't put up the same rebounding totals he did back then because he's playing much fewer minutes in Phoenix. Amare just needs to get around 10 per game and if he and Marion both do that, then they will be fine. Diaw just needs to have spot duty and pick the rebounds that he should - i.e. 5-7 per game instead of giving up offensive rebounds, which he still does a little too much.

With 20 from Marion and Amare, 7 from Thomas, 6 from Diaw, the Suns wing players just have to do a good job pulling down the longer rebounds to come up with about 10 more per game and the Suns are sitting at about 43-45 boards per game, which is pretty good. In the end, all they have to do is outrebound their opponents for me to be happy - I could care less about where they stand in the total RPG column. As of now, though, they are still -2 in the RPG vs. opponents and that has to change.

[The_Game]

so stretch do you think the nuggets can win a le then?

[RonMexico]

i didnt say the BEST defense, or the BEST rebounding team. but they all were at least decent, and could do both when they needed it. the Suns cannot. again, i never once said that the mavs are a model of what it takes to win a le. read what i said again.

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a le and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.

[mabber]

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a le and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.

I'll be there, should be great game. I hope the Suns still have their winning streak going.

[RonMexico]

I'm excited to see how many wins the Suns can get when teams start tanking it at the end of the season to get Greg Oden... unfortunately, most of those will be in the East, so the Suns won't get too many of those "free" victories.

[stretch]

so stretch do you think the nuggets can win a le then?

nope. they dont play defense, and are not very balanced offensively.

[stretch]

Yes, you do - you make these claims about what it takes to win a le and then you say the Mavs have those qualities. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get your point.

And when you make these broad generalizations about the Suns without watching too many of their games, it discredits your comments and makes you look like even more of a homer.

They are playing defense and as long as they improve on the defensive boards, then they will be significantly better in that category.

Dec 28th will give you a chance to revise your comments, so I'm looking forward to it.

yea, they can play defense and rebound. but we arent talking about the Mavs. we are talking about the Suns. the Mavs have NOTHING to do with the inability for the Suns to play good defense and rebound the basketball. if they give up 103 ppg, they are not a good defensive team. maybe they are playing defense as you say, but its obviously not very good.

and you have got to be kidding me, to think that a single regular season game will determine much of anything, in terms of a teams ability to win a le. wait till the playoffs, when EVERY game matters, then we will talk.

[stretch]

I'm excited to see how many wins the Suns can get when teams start tanking it at the end of the season to get Greg Oden... unfortunately, most of those will be in the East, so the Suns won't get too many of those "free" victories.

lol, yea. it will be interesting.