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Have you been watching our recent games?
Parker and Ginobili hate Finley.When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28
Have you been watching our recent games?
No . What's even more impressive (but in a good way) is the production differential between him and Barry.
I was gonna start a thread last night that Bowen looked lost out there last night. Mainly because he didn't have a superstar to guard. Not critisizing Bowen, just what I saw
Not the right stats. These point differential stats don't show who else was on the court, simply that he occasionally plays with other players. This is simply a misdirection from the acknowledged problem of efficiency and productivity.A) If that was the case, then way isn't Oberto's +/- better? Bowen plays a lot of time with one or two members of the Big Three. Oberto, over the last ten games, has played almost all his minutes with the Big Three.
B) Explain the following stats:
When Paired With Robert Horry
Bowen +47
Duncan +26
Parker +20
Ginobili +2
When Paired With Francisco Elson
Bowen +13
Duncan +10
Parker +7
Ginobili -10
When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28
When Paired With Brent Barry
Duncan +44
Bowen +31
Parker +26
Ginobili +25
So when paired with the four main bench players, Bowen's +/- is higher than that of any of the Big Three.
But I thought Bowen's +/- were inflated because of playing with the Big Three?
Guess not.
Bowen's individual efficiency and productivity stats speak louder than how he plays with other individuals because they are based on 48 minutes of playing time regardless of who he is on the court with.
Point differential +/- stats are sort of like the stat that says you can drown in a lake that averages a inch deep. True--but it doesn't accurately tell the whole story.
If Bowen was in fact, our second or third best player as you say his +/- stats indicate, he'd be great trade bait to a team that wanted to win now with a low salaried player. And he'd be a perrenial All-star ahead of Parker and Manu. Alas, that isn't the case.
You'll never persuade me that the +/- stats are the best indicator of a players ability and I'll never persuade you to look beyond them so lets just agree to disagree.
Alright then believe whatever you want. You said that his numbers are inflated because he plays with the Big Three. I show that he is just as effective playing with the bench players and you shoot it down.
I guess if you want to judge a defensive player by his offensive effeciency stats, there's not much I can do. But it's rather odd to try to point out limitations in his game as if this wasn't his sixth season with the team. Everybody knows what he can and can't do ... and it's proven to be enough to win championships.
Bottomline is the Spurs outscore the opponents when Bowen is on the court, no matter who he is on the court with. But I guess outscoring opponents isn't as important as some made up stats that judge a players offensive effeciency.
Bowen is a major part of the problem when you don't have the big man in the middle watching his back anymore. Not only can Bowen not stop anyone anymore, he can't put up points on the other end to counter .
Bowen is a problem.
And with that, I rest my case.
And with that, I rest my case.
I have always like Bowen, but I don't need any stats to see that he helps opposing guards get allstar votes and he clearly should not be touching the ball in an offensive set.
Also, his jordanesque ball handling skills are unwatchable.
But yeah, you win.
He can't chase people basline anymore b/c only Tim is there. We picked our poison and chose to go w/ faster centers instead of Rasho who was an ok shot blocker. I don't miss that contract and slow foot speed though.
TIMVP you obviously don't even look at all the things that go into these ratings on the site your wife and you picked as giving good comparison stats. Put your cursor on the headings and the items that go to make them up will pop up.
Alright then believe whatever you want. You said that his numbers are inflated because he plays with the Big Three. I show that he is just as effective playing with the bench players and you shoot it down.
I guess if you want to judge a defensive player by his offensive effeciency stats, there's not much I can do. But it's rather odd to try to point out limitations in his game as if this wasn't his sixth season with the team. Everybody knows what he can and can't do ... and it's proven to be enough to win championships.
Bottomline is the Spurs outscore the opponents when Bowen is on the court, no matter who he is on the court with. But I guess outscoring opponents isn't as important as some made up stats that judge a players offensive effeciency.
Go back and look up what the Help value is (rebounds, TOs assists, steals, etc.). It has nothing to do with offense. Productivity adds the players points to the HV. Efficiency Rating adds everything up.
It's not as easy to equate the value of a player based on a constantly changing interaction with other players as you seem to think the +/- figure indicates.
But the individual player's Help Value, Productivity and Efficiency ratings per 48 minutes measures solely his personal contributions per 48 minutes. Bowen's individual stats are crummy.
He plays good defense, but the game is changing to a more mobile and higher scoring game. Not many games nowadays have both teams in the 80s so a defensive player isn't as effective or easy to hide as he once was.
"Holding" some player to 25 points while scoring 2 puts a of a lot of pressure on the other players to take up the slack. Give TD 25 points, TP 20 and Manu 20, and you've still only got a total of 65 points so thirty or more points have to come from somewhere. With Bowen getting 35 minutes it isn't getting done.
exactly my thoughts
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