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and I was just making a point that in comparison to Bowen, where Cooper WASN'T an offensive liability (at times).
Cooper was the more versatile defensive stopper.
Michael Cooper was Bruce Bowen, basically.
From 2002-2006, Bowen has scored 7.3% of the Spurs points.
For his entire career, Michael Cooper scored 6.9% of the Lakers points.
Defensive specialist who can spot up and shoot the three? That's Bowen. And Cooper.
and I was just making a point that in comparison to Bowen, where Cooper WASN'T an offensive liability (at times).
Cooper was the more versatile defensive stopper.
agreed. hes a great player. no question about it. but without Tim, the Spurs are NOT championship contenders. without Manu, the Spurs still are championship contenders... because of Tim Duncan. if Arenas or Redd had played their entire careers with Duncan, the Spurs would probably have gotten 4 or 5 les with them. Arenas and Redd are definitely more talented than Manu. sure, people can say Manu is a better winner... but first off, Arenas and Redd have never really had great teams. second, if they played with a team like the Spurs and a player like Duncan their entire career, i strongly doubt that Arenas would have ever turned into any kind of a selfish player. and Redd would fit PERFECTLY with Duncan.
i dont think Ginobili is the greatest draft steal by any stretch of the imagination. there are definitely far more talented and better basketball players that have been drafted late in drafts.
Denial much?
You must not have seen him play. Cooper had more offensive skills then bowen, was better offensively but the shots went to Magic, Kareem and Worthy.
Cooper could take the ball from court to court and nail a driving layup off a steal. Bowen cannot. Cooper also hit the long shot from on top of the key.
Bowen is limited to the corner 3 and if that is not falling he is worthless on the offensive end.
I saw him play, thanks. I'm not in the business of evaluating virtual skills - the COULD have dones, I was discussing actual production, and Cooper's basic role was the same.
I don't think you've seen Bowen enough if the corner 3 is all you've seen.
Manu was only a couple of votes away from being Finals MVP in 2005. He was absolutely HUGE in that championship run.
I have a hard time agreeing that he's the greatest draft steal of all time though.
I've never heard where Cooper was an offensively liability to those Laker teams. The same cannot be said of Bowen with the spurs.
The makeup of the teams were different and Cooper could step up on the offensive end at times when needed but for the most part the lakers had no problems on the offensive end with the players they had.
Just for some side-track, one of the most impressive steals by Manu would be the one he made against Richard Jefferson in Q4 of Game 6 of the 2003 Finals, which he converted to a 2-handed dunk.
As for whether Manu is the greatest draft steal in NBA history, only time will tell.
Cooper and Bowen are pretty much equivalents -- defensive specialists on championship teams. Team players.
They each had one offensive weapon and not much else on that end of the court. Bowen has the 3 from the corner. Cooper had the "Coop-a-Loop" alley oop dunk. Coop's play was more flashy but neither was much of an offensive threat -- they both knew where their bread was buttered.
LMAO @ rascal for saying Cooper was held back in the Lakers offense...
He probably doubled his offense over what he would have done playing for any other team...
Magic Johnson could make me into a 10 ppg scorer.
That's like saying Duncan and DRob hurt AJ's offense. Get that out of here rascal...your worst take ever.
Bull .
Arenas has so many games where he's way off, and shoots terribly...and not only that but he shoots a of a lot more than Manu does.
Maybe that's the difference between Manu and "more talented" players who have never won anything.
Manu is a team player, yet capable of taking over a game like many superstars. But he's never thought of personal success or stats, he thinks in winning over anything else and sometimes to win you need an extra pass or let someone else stand up and take more o the last shot. I think that uncommon way of playing has taken Manu where he is. He's won almost everything he's put his effort in.
See, Tim is another one to do that, he won't complain if he doesn't get the last shot or if has to take 5 or 6 shots a game...
and he's won 3 rings.
And I think many of non-spurs fans can't really see Manu's game the way he really plays. Many of them just look at the stats sheet to give an opinion.
you also have to consider what the other players, like Arenas has had to work with. crappy teammates, crappy coaches, etc... until the past year or two, he never had any good teammates. when you have to score 25-30 a game, just for your team to MAYBE win, as well as an organization that doesnt seem to give a about winning a le, as opposed to making money, its easy to become selfish. but if he played on a team with a disciplined coach, a winning mentality, and a winner like Tim Duncan, perhaps Arenas would have become a much better teammate as well.
Sorry jordan is the number one steal followed by Manu... Jordan is a legend
Definitely. There are a lot of players who may never win anything cause of the lack of realiable 2nd and 3rd options. But there are cases and cases, many super talented players seem to be sentenced to be stars of a crappy teams just because they play for stats all their life. Sometimes they add another grat player to the roster but still that shoot-first mentality lead those players to nowhere.
Im not talking about Arenas here or any specific player.
Drazen at 59 has to be considered. When he died he was probably the second best guard in the NBA.
forgive me if this has already been mentioned
but michael redd was a mid 2nd rounder. might not be the greatest draft steal, but its gotta be up there
kobe, if i remember correctly, was a mid 1st rounder and then traded.
for me, i gotta go with two #3 picks: jordan and wilt.
When Wilt was drafted, the draft was territorial - teams had to select someone in their area. In a free draft, I'm sure he would have gone #1.
IMO, to be a steal he would have had to have been passed over by more than 2 teams.
Manu was passed over by every team once and every team but 2 twice.
Anyone could have had Manu but it was the defending champions using their last pick that got him.
Not any team could have had Jordan. Only 3...
oh i see. i didn't know that
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