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And that's my point.
I'd agree with that. They're careers are now based in showing racism and they will stop at nothing to do so. This isn't the first time Al jumped on the wrong side of a legal battle and it probably won't be the last.
But I'd also say that had this been young poor blacks and not a high profile case, they wouldn't have been there either.
And that's my point.
No so for whites though. It's a wash.
And, doesn't it say something about the prevalence of racism that Al and Jesse, who are in the business of racism, have trouble finding it anymore but, instead, run around the country trying to foment a racial incident out of thin air?
Then they'd have to be a million places at once, because I imagine young blacks probably get arrested and accused everyday in every major city in the country.
Really, I'd say the same for three innocent white kids similarly situated. This case only became high profile because the "victim" was black and Jesse and Al needed a gig.
This case became high profile when FoxNews aired the story non-stop around the clock
Some black dude called Yoni an asshole so he bacame a neocon who says racism doesn't exist except when he is called an asshole.
That's partially why programs such as affirmative action were instated... to help level the playing field again.Ok, so let's own up to the actions of the past and how they put an entire race at a disadvantage.
But yes... if you could do that you would. Unfortunately it is not a pratical, feasible, or beneficial venture.
Look, I lived amongst the poorest of the poor, amongst theives, violence and drugs... my dad's salary was no more than $10,000 per year (during the late 80's and through the 90's) and he supported a family of five. You know what though?? Our family persevered without government assistance and managed to get a decent crack at life. Both of my siblings, like myself managed to graduate from college (all on scholarships) and attain 'higher' paying jobs. We now own our own homes... and are financially in a much better position now than we were when we grew up.... If my family managed to escape the grips of poverty, by the Grace of GOD; I'm sure others could too.
So many factors enter the fray though... we didn't have top of the line clothing, or Air Jordans, or the lastest Nintendo game (for that matter we never owned a game console), we didn't own new bikes (we built our own)... We didn't eat at restaurants every week or buy eccentricities for our vehicles or 'bling-bling', no one in our family had a vice that would hamper our budget, we always had a used car, and even had enough for an annual vaction to the Mexican Caribbean Riviera.... We worked hard at school and had fun at home... most importantly we didn't care what others said because we found support and confort in our family. That's all that mattered.
Bad parenting, and pitiful financial decisions greatly contribute to the reasons why the poor stay poor in today's society. Then again, those who are already 'well-off' don't even have to worry about that burden to begin with. So I rarely expect them to understand.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 06-22-2007 at 01:34 PM.
Don't you mean "young innocent blacks?"
I mean, if they're committing crimes, they should be arrested -- regardless of whether or not they're black and regardless of whether or not it screws up the ratio of black arrests vs. white arrests.
I imagine young whites probably get arrested and accused everyday in every major city in the country too.
They're all innocent according to our legal system
No they're not. The presumption of innocence only applies to the court and jurors.
I can think a person is guilty all day long, if I want...even after he's acquitted. I think O.J. killed Ron Goldman and Nicole Simpson.
There, see, people are not protected by the cons ution from being perceived as guilty. They're only en led to the presumption of innocence from the court when being tried. Otherwise, why would anyone be indicted?
I think the tendency of the black community to attribute all problems to white racism, and the inability to make an honest introspection, is common to several downtrodden societies. I think it is a symptom of the problem, rather than the cause. You see it in the Arab world as well, though maybe for different reasons.
I don't think so much that contemporary racism is behind the dysfunction as much as historical racism is. I detect a great deal of self-loathing among blacks. This I see as an internalization of racism. When a group of people get really screwed up, they aren't necessarily resilient enough to bounce back when the more overt forms of oppression stop.
I do think the government contributed to the deterioration of the lower reaches of black culture. After integration wiped out the black economy that had sprung up in response to segregation, the government stepped in with welfare, but it took another 30 years before anybody to start focusing on things like job creation, so that blacks outside of the "Talented Tenth" could be more than just a dependent class.
I have a question: where did all the black leaders go? Why didn't the baby boomer generation produce new MLK's and John Lewises? Did all those folks end up as doctors and lawyers assimilating into white America? Did they just turn their back on everyone else, or does the state of black culture make mainstream-successful blacks "too white" to be leaders? How did we go from the great visionaries of the 1960's to jokers like Jackson and Sharpton?
But I'm fairly certain that more young blacks are arrested and ultimately convicted for crimes that they didn't commit than there are young whites who suffer the same fate.
Unless, of course, you're in the Group of 88. Then, you were compelled to play by the innocent until proven guilty routine and your failure to do so should result in the termination of your employment, right?
So, is there anything "White America" can do to fix that? Everything this country is doing, or has done to this point, only seems to feed that self-image.
I won't argue with that.
Good question.
sounds like our legal system to me.
Again, sounds like our legal system.
Indicted does not equal convicted, nor does it equal guilty. The presumption of innocence applies post-indictment.Otherwise, why would anyone be indicted?
They crossed the line from believing the players were guilty to advocating their conviction -- in spite of all the exculpatory evidence.
They should be fired not because of what they believed but because of how they used their university positions to pursue an objective that damaged the image of the ins ution.
I think it's fine to believe the players were guilty. My first assumption, based on the news reports, were that they were guilty as well. But, the group of 88, Nifong, Sharpton, Jackson, et. al. continued the ruse long after it was obvious there was no crime.
Be certain all you want. That doesn't necessarily mean it's either true or that it's due to racism.
This thread delivers, btw.
Its interesting to see people's opinions on the matter and even better to see an actual discussion on a subject that doesnt devolve into elementary name-calling.
Really, it all sort of boils down to the most basic truth in life.
Life isnt fair. No race, creed, color or gender will ever be able to undermine that unassailable truth.
I personally believe Black Culture is primarily responsible for the "disadvantage" the Black Community feels exists. But I am also not naive enough to think that the very real nation-wide discrimination and segregation perpetuated upon them as a whole does bear some responsibility for the current state of Black Culture.
I also feel that this...."area of concern" will never be resolved or entirely go away forever.
No amount of government intervention will resolve these issues. These issues must be dealt with by the Black Community for the Black Community.
I live in the suburbs of Detroit. Its almost Chicago-type segregated here (they had to make a new word to describe Chicago's segregation, they call it Super-Segregation....Northside vs Southside...Sox vs Cubs). I have worked with, been neighbors to, partied with, befriended and otherwise know my share of black people.
I am not speaking for people I have observed, I speak for the people I have had relationships with. My personal conclusions from these interactions havent changed my original opinions in any way.
Some are good. Some arent. Some are hateful and feel they are owed something. Others wouldnt take a handout from anybody for anything, ever.
One thing is constant though, in all the black people I have had extensive experience with. They were all from dirt-poor families. Didnt matter if they dressed in a suit for work now, or put on a military uniform everyday, or collected their monthly check from the government, they all started broke beyond any measure I grew up in.
Some overcome. IMO, most do not. And I am not so sure its a problem that the government, or white people for that matter, can do anything about. They either help themselves (like the majority of people I met) or wallow in their ignorance and continue the cycle (a minority of people I have met).
I dont know if this adds anything or not, but its my take.
The presumption of innocence only applies in the sense that the State has the burden to prove guilt whereas the defendent is not obligated to prove innocence.
A murderer who openly plans and executes a crime in the presence of witness and then confesses, is presumed -- by the law (not a person) to be innocent pending the State's ability to prove, beyond a reasonble doubt, guilt.
Every person knows he's guilty, including himself, the judge, the jury, the prosecutor and his own counsel. He's confessed after all.
The law, on the other hand, is blind and dispassionate and will not declare him guilty until the state meets their obligation. That can be as simple as entering a plea of guilty or as difficult as proving a case through testimony and evidence.
However, whatever the case, no one person is precluded from believing anyone is guilty of the crime for which they are accused.
If anybody knew how to solve the problem, it would have been solved by now. I suspect to a large degree, it will be the black community that has its own Awakening, rather than government making it happen.
Perhaps there are examples of downtrodden cultures ascending into prominence, from which we could draw examples?
I think it's an excellent observation.
I would only add that not only is there nothing white people or the government can do to help -- from this point forward -- things that are being done and that are being contemplated actually hurt and make things worse.
yeah, which is why said every person accused is innocent according to our legal system.
does that group include Al Sharpton? Cause you're making a big stink for nothing if that's the case.However, whatever the case, no one person is precluded from believing anyone is guilty of the crime for which they are accused.
I think Asian immigrants -- from the Vietnamese boat people to Chinese political refugees -- are an excellent example of how a culture dropped itself into a strange land, overcame racism and bigotry, and pulled themselves up by the bootstraps.
I do believe the big difference here is that blacks somehow hold me responsible -- because I'm white -- for the oppression of their ancestors and they think I owe them something for the trouble my ancestors may or may not have caused their ancestors.
The Vietnamese, many of whom suffered through a war involving our troops in their country, came here -- dealt with the racism directed at them -- and have come much farther than blacks, in the basicallly the same amount of time.
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