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Just curious, how many times a year do we have this debate?
It never goes away.
I completely disagree.....Tim makes his teammates better, KG does not. KG had at one point in his carrier arguably as good of teammates as Tim has......KG could not get it done. Not even CLOSE.
Tim D. >>>>>>> KG
Just curious, how many times a year do we have this debate?
It never goes away.
Well i think it is a 2 way street. I agree Tim makes his teammates better but you can not sit there and say that Parker, Ginob, Bowen, Robinson (for 1 le) did not make Timmy better. They absolutely did.
KG's effeciency is tops in the league and i still contend that the Spurs would have 3 or 4 rings if KG had played in place of Duncan the last 10 years. For all i know you might have beaten the Lakers during their 3 year run with him???
and for all who say it ain't so just how many rings would you have today if they had been switched?????
One probably, maybe two. David Robinson would have been our inside scorer -- then nobody.and for all who say it ain't so just how many rings would you have today if they had been switched?????
Word.
I still don't think people are grasping the significance of a PF who refuses to play inside. (Well, people outside of Dallas anyway...)
Look.....this is the team the Timberwolves had in 2003 when they could not get past the lakers.....whom the Spurs beat and won their 2nd le.
Ervin Johnson
Sam Cassell
Latrell Sprewell
Garnett
Wally Szerbiak
Troy Hudson
Rasho...........just to name a few players.
If Garnett was the man......how come he couldnt nut up and will his team to a le that year?
The 2003 teams.....this is how I stacked them up
Sam Cassell > Tony (Sam was a vet, Tony still young)
Latrell Sprewell > Manu at the time
Garnet = Tim ( I will give this a wash, even tho TD is better to me)
Rasho = David (David was on his last legs, even tho Rasho is meh)
Wally = Bowen (Wally better off., Bowen D.)
Basically these teams were VERY, VERY even and yet the Spurs won the le and the wolves lost to the Lakeshow.
Uhhhhh neither Sprewell nor Cassell were on the Timberwolves team in 2002-03.
OK.....whatever......2003-2004 When the Lakers won it all. Garnett STILL could not get them over the top.
The Spurs did in 2003 and 2005.
Im sorry, I think Garnett is like Dirk......a regular season guy.
Because the T-Wolves line-up (minus KG) was not nearly as good as the Spurs line-up (minus Timmy) that's why.
Surely you are not suggesting that the T-Wolves line-up above is/was as good as the Spurs are you? Puhleez
Robinson
Parker
Ginob
Horry
Bowen
Jackson
Rose
It's not biased to say compared to team achievements and personal heights KG is not in the same list of players as Duncan as far as legendary status is concerned.
Most people that say different are juvenile NBA fans or uneducated ones at that. And the rest just that stupid and arrogant.
From an NBA historical standpoint Duncan is among Russel, Wilt, Hakeem, Jordan, Bird, Magic and Shaq status. With close followers such as Isiah Thomas and Kareem.
But from a streetball 1on1 matchup they could have traded beatings throughout both their careers.
The difference being a personal thing. Everyone says Duncan is a winner Duncan is a winner, but what it means is under pressure, in any big game, against star team or player, him and the Spurs will step it up. It's not the same with KG even we he had his chances to perform in the playoffs. Barkley can be crying the same thing just about. Malone. No longer are any of these players considered better, or more historically 'made' than Tim Duncan. After this summer, and now possibly more to the list, he could even stretch his status now that it's progressed.
Simply put, this thread should be about Duncan vs Hakeem or Duncan vs Russel. KG? Uh, first floor.
Complete B.S. Stephon Marbury was a great talent, but he was still a 19-20 year old point guard who didn't know how to manage a game or run a team. And, it was Marbury who demanded a trade because he was unable to play second fiddle to KG. Look at Marbury's career and tell me his at ude while at Minnesota was a product of KG not being bale to "accept his teammtes." Yeah ok.
Newsflash: Kevin Garnett is not and never was the GM of the Minnesota Timberwolves. At the end of the day, he did not have final say on personnel decisions, even if he had an influence. If someone offered you $120 million to play basketball, are you going to say no??? When you're a 23 year old kid? Yeah, right, all Kevin Garnett's fault. He even restructured his deal when the CBA allowed that so the Wolves could make better moves. He wasn't the one who offered Joe Smith an under-the-table, wink-wink deal that ended up costing the franchise three first round draft picks in five years. That is ridiculous to point to a 22-25 year old Kevin Garnett and blame him for the personnel decisions and not looking at long term prospects of a team he merely plays on. He wasn't playing for RC Buford and Gregg Popovich. He was playing for Kevin McHale. The same guy that traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric and for good measure gave the Clippers a first round draft pick too. The same guy that had Marko Jaric, Troy Hudson on long term deals, drafted Randy Foye and then gave Mike James the full MLE all in the same summer. Need four point guards???? The same guy that drafted three 6-foot-3 combo guards one draft after the other, McCants, Bracey Wright, Randy Foye. The same guy who finally had success with Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell and decides to trade one and not work out a deal with the other. And, it's Kevin Garnett's fault he didn't look at long term prospects for the Timberwolves? That's a joke of a comment.teams/rebuilding dont win championships overnight, it takes years, team chemistry, the right pieces to win one....KG seems like a guy who looks at short term goals instead of long term prospects...
All you're sure about is jack squat. That much is proven by your post. KG wants to win as much as any player in the league. And, the only thing that ever was a constraint on that desire to win was his loyalty to the city of Minneapolis and the Timberwolves franchise. People make so much about the greed of a modern day pro athlete, well, KG shows loyalty and he's still criticized for it. should he have been like Charles Barkley or Allen Iverson or Vince Carter or Kobe Bryant and either demand a trade or fake injury or pout until the team does something or cause a media circus? No, he still went out there in the last two losing seasons and put up MVP type numbers despite not having any help on his team. He showed loyalty to the organization and the city by not demanding a trade. But, when it was all but apparent that a trade was the best thing for both parties, he finally agreed.And im sure KG is not about winning, its about him pulling in the money as much as he can then starts to worry about winning championships, thats the mind of todays atheletes...its all about the money...
Just because a player doesn't win championships, it doesn't mean he doesn't have the desire to win championships. That's a ridiculous statement. It's a team game. It generally more often times than not requires a great team to win championships. Kevin Garnett never had a great team. He had some good teams. But, he was never on a great team.
I don't believe for a minute that Kevin Garnett is NOT about winning championships. I don't believe for a minute he's only concerned about money.
But believe what you want.
Last edited by JamStone; 08-23-2007 at 03:43 PM.
Uhhhhh keep typing misinformation.
The Lakers did not win it all in 2003-04. The Pistons beat the Lakers in 2003-04 in the NBA Finals.
And, the Timberwolves had a great season that year because Sprewell and Cassell really made them a very good team. Cassell was injured for the playoffs in 2003-04.
Oh, and the Spurs lost to that same Lakers team in the 2003-04 playoffs.
Yes I do......parker sucked back then.....we had speedy claxton playing all the minutes. manu didnt even produce much in 2003. He avg. like 6-7pts a game. Robinson was a mere s of himself. Sjax had just come into his own a bit. The Wolves lineup with Cassell, Sprewell, Szerbiak and Garnett was every bit as good as a young Parker, Ginobilli and Timmy. You are thinking of these guys NOW, but in 2003 they were newbies basically.
Yeah we won the le and Parker and Manu didn't do in the 03 run huh...
My bad......Im confused on the carry over on the years.....doesnt matter really. Point is.....when the Wolves had that great team that dominated the division......they chocked it away. Something a Tim D. team has yet to do. Garnett didnt step it up, sorry.........just the facts and the amount of rings the Wolves have prove it.
Parker and Manu in 2003 were S S of what they are now.....I was there in person of at least 1 to 2 playoff series in 99, 03, 05, and 07. Parker got his ass chewed by everyone in the 2003 playoffs and Manu got limited minutes compared to now.Yeah we won the le and Parker and Manu didn't do in the 03 run huh...
You know.......this is just dumb.......
Tim D > Garnett period. Late
Manu, Bruce Bowen, and Stephen Jackson > Wally, Anthony Peeler, and Kendall Gill
50% David Robinson, Malik Rose still (17 pt/12 rbd) > Marc Jackson, Rasho Nesterovic (15 pt/10.5 rbd)
I guess I'll give the slight edge at point guard to the Wolves in 2003:
Troy Hudson, 10 mpg Rod Strickland slightly > young Tony Parker, Speedy Claxton, Steve Kerr
But, it's only debatable.
My bad......Im confused on the carry over on the years.....doesnt matter really. Point is.....when the Wolves had that great team that dominated the division......they chocked it away. Something a Tim D. team has yet to do. Garnett didnt step it up, sorry.........just the facts and the amount of rings the Wolves have prove it.
More and more B.S.
The one year the Wolves were great was 2003-04. And, much of that success was bringing Cassell and Sprewell to the team. Cassell was injured for the playoffs. The back-up point guard was Darrick Martin.
Please stop.
And, in the two elimination games against the Lakers in the 2004 Conference Finals, KG averaged 26 points and 18 rebounds.
Yo....whatever. I just looked at the 2003 playoffs for the Spurs......manu avg. about 7pts a game......Tony disappeared down the stretch.....several games of only 3-7pts. So stop with the excuses, Tim D. had a young Stephen Jackson and an old David Robinson and still got it done. Tim Carried the team and still willed them to a le.
You obviously have your own opinion.....you think Garnett is the man, I think Tim D. is.
What will be the excuse if Boston doesnt win it all and Garnett misses another le??? Garnett has lots of help now. Pierce and Allen??? We will see.
KG hasn't had as many opportunities in huge playoff games, especially past the first round because his teams were not good enough to be in those positions. His one true chance was in the 2004 conference finals against the Lakers without Sam Cassell.
Duncan has come up very big many times in huge games deep in a playoff run.
What about game 5 of the 2005 NBA Finals when Duncan missed about 5,834,605 free throws but was bailed out by late game heroics by Robert Horry? What about the countless times over the last few playoffs where it was Manu Ginobili with the ball in his hands in the closing possession because he was the most reliable free throw shooter? What about Tony Parker being the difference in winning a le last season?
You see, Tim Duncan is great. He's a legend. If he retired today, he'd go down as the best power forward ever to have played in the game. I don't think many people are arguing against that.
For me, it's about tearing down Kevin Garnett. No, KG is not at the same level as Tim Duncan from a historical standpoint of winning les. But, talent-wise, there is every argument to be made that KG is on par with Duncan. And, many of my arguments in this thread speak on how success as an individual player as it pertains also to team success and championship success must be shared with teammates, coaches, and the front office, whether it is for the glory of that championship success or the blame for the lack of such success.
No one can deny Tim Duncan's greatness as a championship and as an individual talent.
But, too much blame is placed squarely on Kevin Garnett's shoulders for the lack of success he's had in the pursuit of playoff glory and NBA les.
You got it all wrong, it goes more like thisThe 2003 teams.....this is how I stacked them up
Sam Cassell > Tony (Sam was a vet, Tony still young)
Latrell Sprewell > Manu at the time
Garnet = Tim ( I will give this a wash, even tho TD is better to me)
Rasho = David (David was on his last legs, even tho Rasho is meh)
Wally = Bowen (Wally better off., Bowen D.)
Basically these teams were VERY, VERY even and yet the Spurs won the le and the wolves lost to the Lakeshow.
Sam Cassel = Tony Parker ( even though tony was young, cassell was injured)
Sprewell> Manu at the time
Garnett = Tim
Rasho < David (even at that age he was a better defender, shot blocker, rebounder, and inside scorer)
Wally< Bowen (wally sucks)
03 might have been the weakest spur team of the past 8-9 years but they were still better than Garnett's supporting cast. Not to mention Spurs bench > Wolves bench even though that isn't saying much.
And, Stephen Jackson averaged 13 ppg and Malik Rose averaged 9 ppg in the 2003 playoffs. What's your point? Manu wasn't a featured player in 2003. But, he made a difference. Rather Manu off the bench than an old Kendall Gill or Anthony Peeler. Rather Tony Parker than Darrick Martin.
I agree that the 2003 Spurs team was not that great and Tim Duncan carried that team farther than it probably had a right going. That's why Tim Duncan is great.
I have not once said that Tim Duncan is not great. I have not once infered, implied, or explicitly stated that Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. You get things twisted.
As I just stated, I think Tim Duncan is great, a legend. Today, he is the best power forward ever to play in the NBA. I'm just not about tearing down KG and his situation in order to prop Tim Duncan higher than he already is.You obviously have your own opinion.....you think Garnett is the man, I think Tim D. is.
There's no excuse to be made. I don't know if he'll win a le this year, but I absolutely see him making at least a trip or two to the NBA Finals in the next 3-4 years with the star help he now has. This year might be too soon since they now have little depth and it's their first year together. But, if the three stars stay healthy and he doesn't at least make it to the NBA Finals in the next 3-4 years, then it's a problem.What will be the excuse if Boston doesnt win it all and Garnett misses another le??? Garnett has lots of help now. Pierce and Allen??? We will see.
Its not like the Wolves didnt try to place talent around Garnett......nothing happened with it. Like you said......you had Marbury and Billups (whom won with Detroit)......I dont know........I just dont think Garnett is as basketball smart as Timmy D. Tim does the right thing at the right time (especially in the playoffs) .....this is where Ive always seen Garnetts weakness and him faultering. Just because he avg. 26pts and 18 boards doesnt mean he made good decisions during the game. Maybe he didnt share the ball enough??? Tims numbers are alot lower than other many times, because he sees the court and gets people the ball......did/does Garnett do that???
Even with your changes.......it still adds up to a pretty even matchup IMHO.
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