Lowered Expectations in Iraq

[ChumpDumper]

It does. My understanding is they show video clips of Pelosi, Murtha, and the likes on their web sites. Great propaganda coming from the mouths of US government personnel. Treasonous if you ask me.

They probably use video clips of Bush calling the war on terra a crusade too. You want to string him up?

Maybe, I didn't follow the personal aspect of that era. Keep in mind that the situation started with a rightful lawsuit.

Keep in mind that $50 million was spent for nothing.

They probably will. I seriously doubt they will do it in a manner that aids and comforts the enemy, or demoralizes the troops.

I know you say you were in the military, but I just don't see the men and women of the armed forces being such pussies that they would be demoralized by politicians they apparently hate and that want to get them out of a war zone.

Very true. What about nominal time, place, manner considerations? The vocal democrats are demoralizing our troops. This is not acceptable. Period.

I have a higher opinion of the will of the people in the military than you.

I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.

I saw terrible incompetence from the president and his appointees in planning the war, the CPA officials who had no experience and/or no idea what they were doing, and from some officers who ignored the lessons of counterinsurgency learned in Vietnam. Now we have a decent commander in the theater and a competent SecDef, but there is too much the president, Rummy and and the "bad" generals did that can't be undone.

[Oh, Gee!!]

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Iraqi government will become more precarious over the next six to 12 months and its security forces have not improved enough to operate without outside help, intelligence analysts conclude in a new National Intelligence Estimate released Friday.
Despite uneven improvements, the analysts concluded that the level of overall violence is high, Iraq's sectarian groups remain unreconciled, and al-Qaida in Iraq is still able to conduct its highly visible attacks.

"Iraqi political leaders remain unable to govern effectively," the 10- page do ent concludes. A copy was obtained by The Associated Press in advance of its release Thursday
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oh, well we still have your brilliance to carry us through the
day. You know like all the name calling. And so original
on top of that.

And on top of that people like you, Pelosi, Reed, Kennedy
and Kerry have more blood on your hands from the aid
and comfort you give to the enemy than George Bush
will ever have. AQ even quotes our most wonderful
Dimm-o-craps in their little web broadcast.

Let's see..Bush d and ordered the unecessary war... today almost 4,000 killed..and ray blames the dems.. who is the enemy ray? the sunni's? shia?.Al-qaeda? saddam? cookie monster?

[George Gervin's Afro]

It does. My understanding is they show video clips of Pelosi, Murtha, and the likes on their web sites. Great propaganda coming from the mouths of US government personnel. Treasonous if you ask me.


Maybe, I didn't follow the personal aspect of that era. Keep in mind that the situation started with a rightful lawsuit.


They probably will. I seriously doubt they will do it in a manner that aids and comforts the enemy, or demoralizes the troops.


Very true. What about nominal time, place, manner considerations? The vocal democrats are demoralizing our troops. This is not acceptable. Period.


I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.

so to sum it up dissent aides the enemy.. so now we have the war s telling us the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

it's kind of a recurring theme amongst the talking heads on the radio and cable news: Singers (dixie chicks) should just sing, actors (tim robbins, sean penn, alec baldwin, etc.) should just act, and nobody should talk about the war except in glowing terms

[medstudent]

Yeah. Even the soldiers fighting the war can't say anything bad about it because they really don't know how it is throughout all of Iraq.

[Oh, Gee!!]

And simply posting on a website devoted to the San Antonio Spurs (of all things) gives aid and comfort. The most simple and effective way to be a "good" American is to turn off your brain and stop moving your lips (or fingers for our purpose).

[George Gervin's Afro]

it's kind of a recurring theme amongst the talking heads on the radio and cable news: Singers (dixie chicks) should just sing, actors (tim robbins, sean penn, alec baldwin, etc.) should just act, and nobody should talk about the war except in glowing terms

So I guess we could asume that the only folks who are allowed to publicly voice their opinions are talk radio hosts..no one else has the right or credibility to do so.. Welcome to America 2007 !

[xrayzebra]

so to sum it up dissent aides the enemy.. so now we have the war s telling us the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

Our Representatives in both houses voted to go to war.
And yes, dissent in this regard is wrong. You are suppose
to support you country once a decision has been made to
go to war.

The kind of crap that is going on now is what lost the war
in VN. And all AQ has to do is wait until we defeat our
selves with BS like you put out.

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region. But you would probably insist look at
what is happening to the population. Oh, and Saddam
was the perfect ruler who would not only kill his
son-in-laws, but did in fact kill them and hundreds of
thousands more of his people. And we do have an
interest in that region. Like it or not, it is called: OIL!
Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD. You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S. And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.

And yes I say you are un-patriotic. And make dumb
statements when you don't support your country in
trying to defeat someone we are at war with.

[Oh, Gee!!]

dissent is bad
OIL!
You are suppose to support you country
OIL!
The kind of hippy crap that lost the war in VN.
OIL!
AQ in Iraq
OIL!
WMD
OIL!
un-patriotic.
OIL!

[medstudent]

I think ray just eats the party line... hook and all

[George Gervin's Afro]

Our Representatives in both houses voted to go to war.
And yes, dissent in this regard is wrong. You are suppose
to support you country once a decision has been made to
go to war.

The kind of crap that is going on now is what lost the war
in VN. And all AQ has to do is wait until we defeat our
selves with BS like you put out.

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region. But you would probably insist look at
what is happening to the population. Oh, and Saddam
was the perfect ruler who would not only kill his
son-in-laws, but did in fact kill them and hundreds of
thousands more of his people. And we do have an
interest in that region. Like it or not, it is called: OIL!
Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD. You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S. And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.

And yes I say you are un-patriotic. And make dumb
statements when you don't support your country in
trying to defeat someone we are at war with.

ok ray your en led to your opnion.. your boy bush is STILL trying to justify this liberation experiment gone wild.. Seems to me that when you start wars their justification should be clear... what a nice little nazi you've become ray..from where i stand you have just told me that when the actions starts i should just shut up and blindly follow George 'Custar' Bush into little big horn...

[DarkReign]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really ing necessary to wage personal attacks?

What kind of third-grade bull forum is this?

I dont give a what WC or any of you people do for a living, I forst and foremost commend you all for not being drains on society and taking the time and effort to form ONE opinion, which most Americans lack in any and all number of threads in this section.

Hes an antennae farmer? First, I dont know what that is or even means. Second, why the does it matter? Third, why the would you try and use that against him in some way like he should be ashamed, you elitist pricks?

Hes a man with an opinion, an opinion completely opposite of mine, but a man nonetheless. ing act like adults.

I bet two to one that if we all met face-to-face, we would come away with completely different methods of arguing with one another in the post-meeting becauseit would humanize us. Unless youre an ignorant with no integrity or decency, then I dont give a what you did or what you say.

Most of you are excellent at attacking someones argument, sometimes in a crass way or whatever, but at least you have a point and counterpoint between "asshole, dimmocrap, Repugs, etc".

Attacking someones livelihood is the lowest of low and I am surprised that some would stopp to such a level.

/rant

[ChumpDumper]

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us.

Neither did Iraq.

We have no strategic interest
in that region.

Sudan is China's largest overseas oil project. China is Sudan's largest supplier of arms, according to a former Sudan government minister. Chinese-made tanks, fighter planes, bombers, helicopters, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades have intensified Sudan's two-decade-old north-south civil war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Dec22.html

Oil, Chinese arms and murderous militant Islamists who are actively slaughtering non-muslims and let Osama live there for five years -- no strategic interest at all, eh? You really aren't very smart. Can you find it on a map? Wild Cobra can't.

Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD.

AQ is a person now?

Where are "his" WMD? Show them to me. Rummy said right where they were. Why was he so wrong?

You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S.

And Sudan, right? That's in the world.

And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.

He destroyed them.

[medstudent]

they started it

[Oh, Gee!!]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really ing necessary to wage personal attacks?

What kind of third-grade bull forum is this?

I dont give a what WC or any of you people do for a living, I forst and foremost commend you all for not being drains on society and taking the time and effort to form ONE opinion, which most Americans lack in any and all number of threads in this section.

Hes an antennae farmer? First, I dont know what that is or even means. Second, why the does it matter? Third, why the would you try and use that against him in some way like he should be ashamed, you elitist pricks?

Hes a man with an opinion, an opinion completely opposite of mine, but a man nonetheless. ing act like adults.

I bet two to one that if we all met face-to-face, we would come away with completely different methods of arguing with one another in the post-meeting becauseit would humanize us. Unless youre an ignorant with no integrity or decency, then I dont give a what you did or what you say.

Most of you are excellent at attacking someones argument, sometimes in a crass way or whatever, but at least you have a point and counterpoint between "asshole, dimmocrap, Repugs, etc".

Attacking someones livelihood is the lowest of low and I am surprised that some would stopp to such a level.

/rant

you've gotten soft lately.

[ChumpDumper]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really ing necessary to wage personal attacks?

When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.

Follow it up with a completely ignorant take on Darfur and a refusal to even find out what was so egregiously wrong with it when it's pointed out to him -- that's open season for ridicule.

[DarkReign]

I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.

Absolutely disagree. Iraq and its inception, execution and occupation could be labeled as nothing more than inept. There are far worse words to describe what Iraq is accurately.

The whole thing stinks. Just like Vietnam, Iraq was never meant to be won, its meant to be sustained so the military contractors continue their raping of our federal budget. Only the government has become more adaptable to the situation full-well knowing that 1000s of Americans coming home in body-bags isnt very good PR.

So they hire out the work to mercenaries and the locals who have no damn work. They die everyday, 100s probably every week. But they arent American, so they arent counted. You would say they are the ones "standing up", when in actuality they are an arm of the American governement in its endeavor to prolong the single most profitable venture in the investment world.

I dont expect you to agree with me. Nor would I ever. You call people lemmings with regularity and truly believe your government has all of these great intentions for the world. Which is complete and utter lemming bull .

It doesnt matter if this were Bush or Clinton, they are puppets. Puppets on very, very short strings. They are the "face-men" of an otherwise corrupt government with no desire for anything but a) control and b) money (which go hand in hand).

Shortly after Kennedy made a very short and sweet statement that there was in fact, a handful of powerful individuals who controlled most aspects of our governement and governments around the world, and made known his intentions to leave Vietnam, he was executed.

Has any president since dared to tell the truth since? no! Why would they? Theyre apart of the same gravy train thats been rolling for 4 decades, benefitting from the same people that all federal politicians do on varying scales.

And its people like you who fail to recognize these truths and cast doubt upon the messenger(s). Iraq is not a winnable situation because it was never meant to be. Politically, Bush Co. is weighing only one important decision, "How long can we stay until they revolt?" If casualties are the barometer for tolerance, we're there until 2015, maybe beyond all in the hope of stabilizing a region that wasnt stable to begin with.

Its a God-complex that needs to stop. And it stops HERE, not there.

[DarkReign]

you've gotten soft lately.

This is true. I used to enjoy teenage banter, but I lost that somewhere between graduation of high school and marriage.

[DarkReign]

When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.

Well, that I wont argue with. And nor was I trying to moderate, I was only stating a my opinion.

But you do willingly post in a political forum. A political forum, by its definition, is going to involve our government. And you'll always have loyalists and dissenters.

Therefore, your patriotism and your sensitivies to it being in question should have been checked at the door, IMO.

EDITED: changed "point" to "my opinion"

[DarkReign]

they started it

[Oh, Gee!!]

This is true. I used to enjoy teenage banter, but I lost that somewhere between graduation of high school and marriage.

now who is the one insulting?

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that I wont argue with. And nor was I trying to moderate, I was only stating a my opinion.

But you do willingly post in a political forum. A political forum, by its definition, is going to involve our government. And you'll always have loyalists and dissenters.

Therefore, your patriotism and your sensitivies to it being in question should have been checked at the door, IMO.

EDITED: changed "point" to "my opinion"

Absolutely not. I refuse to let anyone tell me what I think of this country and anyone trying to do so is going to get their shoved back down their throats. They should check their stupid, faux-argument canards at the door and stick to the topic. If they don't, 'em.

[DarkReign]

now who is the one insulting?

You sensitive prick.

[DarkReign]

Absolutely not. I refuse to let anyone tell me what I think of this country and anyone trying to do so is going to get their shoved back down their throats. They should check their stupid, faux-argument canards at the door and stick to the topic. If they don't, 'em.

You take your patriotism so seriously that someone questioning it in a political forum infuriates you to such a level that you cant bear to remove your inclinations to personally attack them?

You always seemed so much more creative.