For those who kept saying Jordan was a great teammate

[ambchang]

It doesn't define his career, but it shows the difference between Jordan and Kobe. Things got tough for Kobe and he gave up. Bring up his empty stats if you like, but if you actually watched that game, you KNOW that Kobe was purposely tanking in the 2nd half.

And that game is merely a microcosm of everything Kobe is about. It doesn't define his career, but it does define his relationship with his team that year and every year before it.

You find me a time when things got tough for Jordan, and he lashed out at his team by giving up and purposely tanking. Find me that time and maybe i'll start seeing things your way.

Jordan doesn't tank, he still plays the game, but he blames his teammates, which is what Kobe does.

[ambchang]

Why does it really matter?

You are not in the NBA to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe Jordan liked some teammates and not others, so what? He was still a team player because he knew he couldn't do it alone and made those around him better. You win by any means neccessary within the scope of the rules. You can have great team chemistry and still not like everyone on your team.

And that is ultimately not the point of the thread.
The point of the thread is to point out to people just because Jordan was one of the best in the history of the game doesn't make him a good teammate. He won despite being a jerk and never made any of his teammates better, but people are out revising history, saying that Jordan made his teammates better, and Pippen rode his coattails to 6 les.

[samikeyp]

My post still stands.

I asked a question.

Why does it really matter?

[monosylab1k]

Jordan doesn't tank, he still plays the game

thank you.

[ambchang]

Agreed...Jordan was focused on les, Kobe seems focused on Kobe.

And again I ask, why? Why would you know?
Isn't Kobe asking out of the current situation because he wanted to win les?
Wasn't it Buss who traded Kobe to the Heat and not Kobe? Shaq came out and said last year (or the year before?) that he believed it was BUss who made all the decisions, and Kobe was not the deciding factor.
Both men were ultra-compe ive, just that Jordan was that much better than Kobe.

[samikeyp]

I wouldn't know and I am not claiming to. I am voicing an opinion.

[monosylab1k]

Isn't Kobe asking out of the current situation because he wanted to win les?

Good for him. We'll see now just how serious he is about winning. His at ude and behavior before this (most notably in his game 7 tank job), showed everybody that Kobe was all about Kobe. maybe now he's a changed man.

[ambchang]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.
Substandard production environments, child labour and employee abuse allowed Nike and Reebok to create an athletic apparel empire in the late 80's, doesn't make it OK now that they are successful, does it?

[samikeyp]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.

When it comes to pro sports, the end is the only thing that matters. History only records how you finish. Fair or not but that it the reality.

I guess I am curious, why are you so adamant to make sure the world knows that you think Jordan was not a good teammate?

[monosylab1k]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.

to quote, um, you....i'll say "why would you know?"

his teammates have always said otherwise.

[samikeyp]

I am also still curious....who called Jordan a great teammate?

[ambchang]

to quote, um, you....i'll say "why would you know?"

his teammates have always said otherwise.

Didn't the video note otherwise?

[monosylab1k]

Didn't the video note otherwise?

it showed that he could be an ass, it showed that he did things that weren't right in his dealings with his teammates, sure.

but ask any of those guys "Would you do it all over again? Would you rather be on any other team in those years?" and take a wild guess as to what they'd say.

ask Kobe's teammates of the past 2 seasons those same questions and take a guess as to what they'd say....

end.

[ambchang]

I am also still curious....who called Jordan a great teammate?

I just did a random search on google in the realms of "Jordan made his teammates better", or "Jordan great teammate"
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs...Players_Better
http://tstos.wordpress.com/2007/03/1...-legend-vs-mj/
http://playerdevelopment.wordpress.c...ichael-jordan/

[samikeyp]

So guys who played with Jordan and were with him on a daily basis are wrong?

[ambchang]

When it comes to pro sports, the end is the only thing that matters. History only records how you finish. Fair or not but that it the reality.

I guess I am curious, why are you so adamant to make sure the world knows that you think Jordan was not a good teammate?

Well, it's not just with sports, but history in general.
It's just that I kept seeing the post were Kobe were being criticized for his recent actions, while Jordan gets a free ride. As a Spurs fan, I dislike Kobe as much as anybody, but I just felt that this double-standard is not right.

[ambchang]

I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them. The world is more than black and white.

[monosylab1k]

I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them.

excuse me? so you don't agree with the opinion of teammates who played with Michael Jordan on a daily basis and experienced firsthand the good & bad of MJ in a discussion of Jordan's treatment of said teammates? what the ? wouldn't they have an infinitely better grasp of the situation than you?

[stretch]

I have one important qualifier to all of that: I also don't think Michael Jordan was unquestionably the GOAT. Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain are in that discussion. (You can also make some of the same "failed to realize his full potential" arguments with Chamberlain also.) The real key to me is that Jordan could have easily prevented this sort of debate by winning 8 consecutively.

Also, I really do believe Jordan was secretly suspended. If you believe that, it is hard to look at him the same way. If I am just some conspiracy nut, I do apologize...

Jordan played in more advanced and compe ive era's, had less support, and had a more accomplished resume than those guys. Jordan all the way.

[monosylab1k]

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs...Players_Better

In 1994 when Jordan left to play baseball the Chicago Bulls won 55 games without him, compared to 57 the year before with him.

yeah, two fewer wins, and one fewer of these -

you're right, Jordan didn't make his teammates better, i mean, all they had was 2 fewer wins and one less trophy without him. that's pretty damn close!

[stretch]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.

Correction: the 3 to 6 rings.

[samikeyp]

Correction: the 3 to 6 rings.

Yes, thank you.

[stretch]

And that is ultimately not the point of the thread.
The point of the thread is to point out to people just because Jordan was one of the best in the history of the game doesn't make him a good teammate. He won despite being a jerk and never made any of his teammates better, but people are out revising history, saying that Jordan made his teammates better, and Pippen rode his coattails to 6 les.

How is it that he DIDN'T make his teammates better??? He won them multiple rings. If it wasn't for the sole fact of playing alongside Jordan, we would not know or care about any of those players, with the exception of Pippen. If anything, its BECAUSE of Jordan that they got any serious kind of recognition or that anyone cares who they were.

[monosylab1k]

In a world where Michael Jordan didn't exist, I'd love to see John Paxson or Steve Kerr interview for a GM job.

"okay next candidate.....John Paxson.....who the is that???"

[samikeyp]

and I am still a big believer in the Pippen coattail theory.