The last inbounds play by the Mavs: legal?

[tmtcsc]

He was where he was supposed to be. It was Elson guarding airspace and out of position on the last play.

Yep....Bowen and Elson were discussing it with "damn, dude..we got away with one" expressions on their faces.

[GSH]

I guess Bowen and Duncan didn't see the last play. They were both very upset that Elson didn't switch like he was supposed to.

But no one is saying that Elson was supposed to go out of bounds with Nowitzki.

Bowen and Duncan hadn't had the luxury of looking at the game film when that happened, had they? Tell you what...before you laugh at me any more, go have a look at a clip of that play, and tell me what the switch was supposed to look like. http://youtube.com/watch?v=BoSmisqC5ss

Just before the ball gets thrown in-bounds to Nitwitzki, pause the video. Exactly who the is Finley guarding? Better still...back up a few seconds and try to figure out how and why Finley got there. If Elson had left Howard, what would have kept him from getting the inbounds pass for a gimme 2-points?

The truth is, it didn't matter who was guarding Howard. His only job was to clear out anyone coming across the paint - which he did, shoving Elson backwards beyond the restricted circle. By that time, there wasn't much chance that Elson could have seriously challenged Dirk in the corner.

So where was Elson supposed to have switched? At the beginning of the play, Bowen got screened off Dirk by Brandon Bass, and Elson picked him up. Then Dirky ran out the end line - and that's when Howard cleared Elson to just above the restricted circle. So what, exactly, was the switch that Elson missed? Was he supposed to come out and cover Bass, so that Bowen could make a run at Nitwitzki? Was he just supposed to somehow not get cleared out by Howard, and follow Dirky while he was out-of-bounds? Was he supposed to leave Howard alone, a couple of feet from the basket, and with no one between him and the guy in-bounding the ball?

[LB7]

I'm going to venture to guess the play wasn't designed that way. Dirk was supposed to cut down the baseline and Josh Howard was to set the back screen. However, Elson extended his arm and forced him out of bounds. Some of yall are such homers. You can obviously tell he wasn't trying to run out of bounds. You can see Josh coming for the back screen. Geez. Then, he was probably supposed to get the ball as soon as he got around it. We didn't need the three, only two. He was forced out of bounds and then took an awful route to the open spot. He even said he ran the wrong way. Open your eyes guys. AJ didn't draw out an illegal play. Whoever said Pop needs to wait for the playoff game and tell the ref to watch out for it...yeah you made me crack up. You really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu (which just took longer and didn't gain anything and also allowed Manu to see where he was going) instead of running behind where he wouldn't see? Oh geez give me a break.

[Budkin]

i was never able to find that video of bowen and tim chastising him... and i was too busy fist pumping to see it when it happened... any links?

Right after the final buzzer sounds you can see Bowen talking with Elson and he looks irritated. I didn't know Duncan got on him though. That would have been devastating had he hit that shot, especially since it seems like the whole play was illegal to begin with.

[samikeyp]

then why all the Donaghy commotion if refs don't matter?

Some Phx fans still need an excuse.

[travis2]

I'm going to venture to guess the play wasn't designed that way. Dirk was supposed to cut down the baseline and Josh Howard was to set the back screen. However, Elson extended his arm and forced him out of bounds. Some of yall are such homers. You can obviously tell he wasn't trying to run out of bounds. You can see Josh coming for the back screen. Geez. Then, he was probably supposed to get the ball as soon as he got around it. We didn't need the three, only two. He was forced out of bounds and then took an awful route to the open spot. He even said he ran the wrong way. Open your eyes guys. AJ didn't draw out an illegal play. Whoever said Pop needs to wait for the playoff game and tell the ref to watch out for it...yeah you made me crack up. You really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu (which just took longer and didn't gain anything and also allowed Manu to see where he was going) instead of running behind where he wouldn't see? Oh geez give me a break.

ummmmm...reading comprehension is something you need to work on.

Shoog specifically said "if the play was designed..." So obviously he doesn't "...really think the play was designed for Dirk to start down the baseline, get shoved out, stumble his way back onto the court to run through Manu"

And in any case, the meat of the question didn't have anything to do with whether or not the play was designed that way or not. It was whether or not it was legal. Period.

And by the rules as posted (which you would do well to actually read and attempt to comprehend), it would appear that at least the action of moving through the box occupied by Manu was not in accordance with the rules.

[LB7]

Actually, if I was Pop, what I would do is keep my mouth shut and wait for the playoffs. Then before each game, just quietly make sure the refs know that the play is illegal and wait for him to try it.

Um this is the quote I was referring too. And, yes, looks like to me Shoog is implying that Avery drew it up illegally. Otherwise, why would he say "wait for him to try it"? Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not. Thats all I was saying. To be honest, I thought it should have been a 5 second call. Congrats on the win tho.

[GSH]

I just got a response from a friend who is a game official. He says that the NBA rule that "no player may cross the boundary once a designated thrower has been identified" means the same thing as the NCAA rule that states:
Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot
throw-in begins.

Assuming he is correct (I consider him a good source) it means that in this situation, Nitwitzki was not allowed to go out of bounds. Which means the play was illegal. I looked at every clip of front court baseline inbounds plays I could find. I didn't see a single one where a player ran out of bounds.

If you assume that Nitwitzki was not supposed to run OOB, then Elson did exactly what he should have done. He picked up Nitwitzki after Bowen got screened off by Bass, and got between him and the inbounds passer. Bowen should have been able to stick with Bass, since Nitwitzki wasn't supposed to be popping up on the opposite side of the court.

I don't know if AJ knew the play was illegal, or even thought about it. He drew up a play that he thought would work. And it would have worked if Nitwitzki had made that shot. I just think the Spurs and the refs were both caught flat-footed, because that same play would have been legal on the other end of the floor, after a made field goal.

But don't have any doubts that was the way the play was drawn up. As soon as Bass made contact with Bowen, Nitwitzki headed straight OOB (and deep OOB) and headed straight for the point on the court where Ginobili was guarding the inbound pass. Howard stayed low to clear out anyone coming across the paint, which was Elson. Legal or not, the Mavs ran the play to perfection.

[As I was writing I got an e-mail from another friend. We may see that play discussed on a national sports show this evening or tomorrow. (I'll post if I find out for sure.) Should get some confirmation from a more "official" source if that happens.]

[travis2]

Um this is the quote I was referring too. And, yes, looks like to me Shoog is implying that Avery drew it up illegally. Otherwise, why would he say "wait for him to try it"? Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not. Thats all I was saying. To be honest, I thought it should have been a 5 second call. Congrats on the win tho.

OK, in that case I can see where you might think that. Shoog's been around a long time and I personally don't think he really meant that, but I can see your point.

Suggest quoting the post you are referring to next time...we won't have this confusion anymore.

[travis2]

I just got a response from a friend who is a game official. He says that the NBA rule that "no player may cross the plane of the boundary once a designated thrower has been identified" means the same thing as the NCAA rule that states:
Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a. Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot
throw-in begins.

Assuming he is correct (I consider him a good source) it means that in this situation, Nitwitzki was not allowed to go out of bounds. Which means the play was illegal. I looked at every clip of front court baseline inbounds plays I could find. I didn't see a single one where a player ran out of bounds.

If you assume that Nitwitzki was not supposed to run OOB, then Elson did exactly what he should have done. He picked up Nitwitzki after Bowen got screened off by Bass, and got between him and the inbounds passer. Bowen should have been able to stick with Bass, since Nitwitzki wasn't supposed to be popping up on the opposite side of the court.

I don't know if AJ knew the play was illegal, or even thought about it. He drew up a play that he thought would work. And it would have worked if Nitwitzki had made that shot. I just think the Spurs and the refs were both caught flat-footed, because that same play would have been legal on the other end of the floor, after a made field goal.

But don't have any doubts that was the way the play was drawn up. As soon as Bass made contact with Bowen, Nitwitzki headed straight OOB (and deep OOB) and headed straight for the point on the court where Ginobili was guarding the inbound pass. Howard stayed low to clear out anyone coming across the paint, which was Elson. Legal or not, the Mavs ran the play to perfection.

[As I was writing I got an e-mail from another friend. We may see that play discussed on a national sports show this evening or tomorrow. (I'll post if I find out for sure.) Should get some confirmation from a more "official" source if that happens.]

That would be very interesting. Thanks.

[FromWayDowntown]

Yes, I understand what everyone is saying about the rule. And if it was an illegal play, then so be it, you still won the game. My point is, why send it to the league office? They didn't do it on purpose, they aren't going to draw a play like that up to try knowing it is illegal. Illegal things happen in every single game that don't get called. The only way you need to do something about it is if you thought it was done on purpose and it clearly was not.

I appreciate the nuance in your view, but I'll also note that it seems to me that this is exactly the sort of thing that Mark Cuban would be likely to complain about to the league.

[GSH]

I appreciate the nuance in your view, but I'll also note that it seems to me that this is exactly the sort of thing that Mark Cuban would be likely to complain about to the league.

Heh...Cuban is still bitter about the refs not calling an over-and-back in the finals a couple of years ago. But if the Mavs had benefitted instead? He would be the first to call the other team whiners.

I was being too diplomatic about AJ's intentions. I guarantee you that little troll knew the play was illegal. Even if nothing else was wrong, brushing Manu off the inbounds passer like that can't be defended. But he also had a pretty good idea he could get by with it, and I'm sure he had been saving it for just such an occasion. Give him credit for trying hard to win the game. He may be a little troll, but he used to be our little troll.

Why get clarification from the league office? If, by some miracle, the play really is legal by NBA standards, the Spurs better know about it and have some idea how to defend it - becuase a lot of other teams will pick up on it pretty quickly. But even if it didn't happen to the Spurs again, a game here or there between other teams could affect home court advantage down the road.

And if that play isn't legal, getting clarification would make sure the refs know how to call it correctly the next time. It would have been a shame to lose that game on an illegal play. Because a protest is just something you do to keep your interns busy.

[fyatuk]

If the officials would have stopped the play there, it would have been to call a foul on Elson (for pushing Dirk, the reason he went out of bounds), and the Mavs would have gotten 2 free throws and the ball.

That would have sucked, huh...

[jcrod]

looking at the replays i think Finely is at fault.

The Spurs have been switching on picks all game, going by this and the replay:

Bowen was guarding Dirk, Elson on Bass, and Finely on Howard.

Bass picks Bowen - switch, Howard picks Elson, Elson switchs but Finely steps a couple of steps back guarding no one. Leaving Dirk roaming by himself for the open shot.

If Elson had stayed on Dirk, Howard would've had an open layup.

[Joe Schmoogins]

looking at the replays i think Finely is at fault.

The Spurs have been switching on picks all game, going by this and the replay:

Bowen was guarding Dirk, Elson on Bass, and Finely on Howard.

Bass picks Bowen - switch, Howard picks Elson, Elson switchs but Finely steps a couple of steps back guarding no one. Leaving Dirk roaming by himself for the open shot.

If Elson had stayed on Dirk, Howard would've had an open layup.

Those are my thoughts about the play as well. Elson did switch on to Dirk, but then after Howard's pick, he stuck with Howard while Finley was supposed to switch to Dirk. Finley was left floating in the middle like a fool. I think Bowen probably got into it with Elson becuase he didn't realize at the time that there was a second screen set for Dirk from Howard. Elson should not be taking crap for this play. No way.

[2centsworth]

Those are my thoughts about the play as well. Elson did switch on to Dirk, but then after Howard's pick, he stuck with Howard while Finley was supposed to switch to Dirk. Finley was left floating in the middle like a fool. I think Bowen probably got into it with Elson becuase he didn't realize at the time that there was a second screen set for Dirk from Howard. Elson should not be taking crap for this play. No way.

Well he did get lost, but if he didn't screw up Finley would have allowed an easy two.